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Thread: Guided Hunters Affect on Resident Alaska Hunters

  1. #1
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    Default Guided Hunters Affect on Resident Alaska Hunters

    Well I missed the last part of the convicted guide thread that myself and Mr. Strahan were debating some topics on, so I thought I would start a new topic to be discussed in detail. First off I will say this about me, I am an outspoken person by character. I am the type of guy that cant sit back and not put my $.02 in when I feel strongly about something. Some guys are afraid to speak their peace for fear of being made fun of or out smarted in a debate, I on the otherhand have no qualms about debating something I feel strongly about with anyone! Also I live in the interior, I dont hunt the Chugach mountains and or have any idea what goes on in the Matsu Valley so my input is merely relating to what goes on from the Alaska range north.

    Okay hence some of my own personal resentment stated towards the guides which I am sure you picked up on in my comments to Mr. Strahan, here is what I see. If you disagree with me thats fine, but this is what I see and its okay to disagree with me. I have not lived in Alaska my whole life, I have about 10 years under my belt up here. I came to Alaska because the lure of the last frontier and my passion for the outdoors (both hunting and fishing). Thngs in the lower 48 have deteriorated so badly with the management of our countries wildlife resources in ways that are too many too list. Just in the last 10 years there is a trend that has developed too quickly and too robustly up here and that is lower 48 money having way too much power in dictating what is going in Alaska. As hunting conditions deteriorate even more in the lower 48 the hunters with large amounts of surplus funds are flocking to Alaska in greater numbers. Guide services like anything relse react to this demand, and more and more guide services are popping up each and every year. The transporters are also responding to this because so many of the guide services rely on these transporters to do a lot of their heavy lifting. This leads me to my initial gripe. Where does this leave the average Alaskan resident that works 5 or more days a week and provides for his family but also has a strong passion for hunting? The Haul road that once was a good place to hunt with breathing room for most hunters seeking it has been improved to such a level that more and more hunters can crowd that region, why was the road developed so much? Why are their a half dozen Yellowstone National park type rest areas alll along the haul road? I'll tell you why because the tourism industry wanted the road better and rest stops for the buses full of tourist that travel it now many times a summer and fall. It just appears to me that the state could give a chitt about the people that live up here, simply put. All they care about is money. Just to give you an example, I read a post on another forum last week about a guy that has a hunt booked for spring brown bear on kodiak and wanted to know what gear to bring. The spring hunt on kodiak wont even come out till next year, however the state has established a pattern of giving guides down there a set amount of tags each year in a manner that they can actually guarantee a client a tag 2 years in advance. Now on the other hand I and my friends can put in for those coveted Kodiak tags till were blue in the face with no guarantee that we'll ever draw. So once again money rides shotgun and the resident rides back seat. Really I could go on and on and on with examples.

    My feelings are that lower 48 money is destroying Alaskas hunting for those that live up here. When decisions are made in relation to the resources up here the residents ride back seat to the guiding industry and we are left in the the ATV/ORV abuse topics to fight back and forth because it is all many of us have as access. So while guides are out in valleys killing 2 dozen legal rams a year and intimidtaing (officially or unofficialy) DIY resident hunters from access into their guiding land which also happens to be public land. Then resident hunters gain access to what little they can from the road system and conjestion occurs, animals are thinned and then when everything is gone we are left with nothing. All the while the guy with $12,000 is sure to have a wonderful sheep hunt somewhere in remote Alaska that most of us cant ever get a ride into. I always thought Alaska was about Alaskans and figured things could never get the way they are now because Alaskans wouldn't tolerate ity and it appears its either happened while no one was looking or we just never know what exactly is going on. The guides are fighting guides, the guides are fighting residents, and transporters are caught in between, the guy bringing up the rear is the Alaskan resident that works 8-5 and gets 10 days vacation a year and doesn't have near the options available to him that which every non-res with money does. Many of the guys I know that love hutning dont have a problem spending the money to pay air charters for fly in access but unless you want dumped right in the middle of a major caribou migration region along with 100 other hunters , your options with them are limited.

    So in closing, I may be way out of touch here , I doubt it because I hear this stuff discussed daily amongst resident hunters. I am intersted to hear other resident alaskan hunters perspectives.

  2. #2

    Default Alaska resident hunters

    You seem to have hit the nail squarely on the head. I have been in Alaska since 1984 and see this same trend. It is really bad when the resident hunter is being pushed farther and farther from accessable and decent game area's.
    The part about the Haul road is exactly right. The tourist industry is the driving force behind making it more and more anti-hunting and a tourist attraction. They are strictly after the tourist dollar, and the resident be ****ed. The majority of the tour companies are Outsiders, so they just don't care, and the State just looks at the money from them, and the resident be ****ed.
    You are correct. A lot of us definitely agree with you. When I am in an area as a resident and a guide or non-resident has the audicity to contact me and tell me I am in "his" area, I tell them real quick where to get off. Had it happen a couple of times, and these folks can be ****ed. The legitimate and decent guides won't do this.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  3. #3

    Default Blanked out words

    It is silly to block a word such as (intentionally misspelled so it will show) dammed. Vulger words, sure, but you hear worse than this in church. Silly.
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

  4. #4
    Member svehunter's Avatar
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    Hawken read the rules you cant say the f word here..

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    Default Not that way for all guides

    Alaskacub,as i continue to read you posts and problems with guides and not being able to hunt the way you want i have to put in a reply.first not all guides are as greedy as you generalize,although i have to agree on some of what you have to say such as the almighty dollar has taken its grip.i guide for a couple of reasons,one is that it is the love of it,i live in somewhat remote bristol bay and have pretty much lived the subsistence life although if i want to play on this computer i need to have a cash income and the best of skills i have are hunting.i do not take out the masses,(only one moose hunter last yr).all my meat goes in the freezer or other family members.(my native wife has a large clan).you state that you moved here to enjoy the great state and its hunting yet you only have a little bit of time to do what you desire,would it be safe to say you are a weekend warrior?have you thought of giveing up your 9-5 and bushing it.there are a lot a problems in the guideing biz and things need to be done,and the ball has already started to roll.i would go on about my personal problems about non area hunters coming in and corky one off because they only have ten days vac.but will rest it here for this will be an issue that will be around for a while.so in closeing would like to not be so generalized.thanks and Merry Christmas.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    nice way to start the new thread akcub. good transistion.
    Everyone knows i'm a guide, but am also a resident hunter, thinking back on this topic from a 27 year alaskan, the only problems i've ever encountered in the field on mypersonal hunts was with air taxis or transporters. one lake i caribou hunted on had 12 camps on it, all by the same air taxi. a lake on kodiak has 6 camps on it and you could yell back and forth to most of them. i haven't ran into any guides where i've been hunting so i can't say how that would go. but being a guide i would have a pretty good idea how to handle it, i'd know what their concerns where with me, but at the same time i'd know my concerns with them.
    When most hunters have one chance a year to get out to the field to get serious they want a good experience, one bad run in with a guide will sour that forever. Guiding is like any other business, some good some bad.
    I agree that i have a problem with non resident guides telling residents that this is "their" area, as far as non resident contracting guides...well thats another thread...Now resident guides are trying to protect their investments with their area and clients. some guides actually keep log books on the game spotted and harvested to try and "micro manage" their area, which is great. till joe resident comes in. On the other side of the coin joe resident is trying to protect his investment, which proportionaly is just as great as the guides...he has every right to be there as the guide does, except the guides paying to be there, resident isn't. so the conflict only arises when either or both of they parties react to the situation. if they both react civilized and work out a game plan that both can live with, it'll never make the paper. but if one party can't handle it and takes it as a personal attack, then you've got your problem.
    So rather than saying the guides or transporters are the problem or joe resident. i'm gonna say the individuals involved in each circumstance are the problem. We all have a choice how we react to other people and other actions. And we can control those as well. This topic started because someone didn't control themselves. The only thing his occupation had to do with it was add more emotional fuel to the situation. Before he's a guide hes a person.
    Guns don't kill people kill...guides aren't the problem...people are the problem.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaCub View Post
    Just to give you an example, I read a post on another forum last week about a guy that has a hunt booked for spring brown bear on kodiak and wanted to know what gear to bring. The spring hunt on kodiak wont even come out till next year, however the state has established a pattern of giving guides down there a set amount of tags each year in a manner that they can actually guarantee a client a tag 2 years in advance.
    Dude,
    I'll be hunting a South Kodiak spring bear in '07, drew it last fall. I certainly didn't get mine "2 years in advance". These kinds of misinterpreted/miscounstrued "facts" you spout don't lend any weight to your arguments. If ANYONE can prove here that F&G guarantees tags to guides, in advance of the draws, I'll gladly eat crow. As screwed as the system may be, I find that claim to be pretty far fetched.

    Please, for the rest of us, get your facts straight, make your point, and quite whining so much.....a well thought out debate will score you more points than some rambling post.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    AKcub, they don't give guides tags on kodiak, some of the areas are exclusive use, becaues of Kodiak national wildlife refugee, so only one guide can guide there. the state has the tags seperated for some non res and some res. so if there is only one guide in an that then he has a shot at the non res tags. about six areas on the island are state land or native, which would be mulitple use so there will be more than one guide there, they are combating for the tags then.
    Do a little checking before you toss out something you "heard" somewhere from someone who didn't know, exspeically if your trying to use it against someone. but anyway thats how the drawing stuff for kodiak works.

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    enviro guy, here is the thread and it even has the guides name, I dont make stuff up as you attest in this statement

    "These kinds of misinterpreted/miscounstrued "facts" you spout don't lend any weight to your arguments"

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...2095#436102095

    Note his thread does not state I am thinking about going to Kodiak, it states he is off to kodiak in 2008 and has already locked in a guide. This is the unofficial stuff that goes on behind residents backs regularly, its the unspoken part of our system.

    Boy its amazing that the res hunters wont speak up in these threads just guides and non-res hunters.... geesh.

    I do have some answers to our problems. Reduce the number of non-resident over the counter and draw tags and the overguiding issues and transporter issues cease to some degree, its not rocket science. This should be done way before residents are restricted any more than they already have.

  10. #10

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    Just so you know, I was born and raised here, been hunting all over this state for over 20 years. I am not a guide.

    Do you understand the difference between a registration hunt and a drawing hunt? Did you even take the time to look up the fact that unit 8 has over the counter registration spring bear hunts? Or do you continue to make poor assumptions and base your weak arguments on those?

    I see you all over the internet, you do nothing more than spout nonsense.

    I actually agree, to an extent, with some of your basic arguments. Its just difficult to wade through your weak arguments and poorly stated theories.

    Although, admittedly, your usually good for a laugh......

    Carry on as you will, but man, you ain't doing the rest of us any favors......

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    ummm cub did you read my post about how guides have tags??? if he's the only guide in an exclusive area then there isn't anyone else to apply for the tags so his guys will always DRAW a tag. key word is draw, they aren't given tags, or set aside tags for a particular outfitter its all by area, mike munsey happens to be the guide in the exclusive area...thats how it works. thats all open in black and white just about everywhere you read about non res drawing tags on kodiak.
    If kodiak nat wildlife refugee made that area semi-exclusive with more than one guide, then it would be a differnt story.but since the landholder has dictated that only guide in an area at a time, thats the lay of the land.
    guide use areas on kodiak are really quiet small when you get into one and start looking around. so two guides in some of those areas is a tight squeeze...that would be another thread too i'm sure. lol man hang tight we all love the outdoors, some have differnent views that others, one bad apple so to speak. try not to let us guides drag ya down, have a great christmas!!

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    ak enviro, never suggested that you were a guide or non-res hunter, I Appreciate your compliments and support, but I'm not in a popularity contest, just stating what I see and hear each and every day.

  13. #13

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    I see and hear lotsa things every day. Did you know some guy named Santa, is supposed to fly around the world on Monday delivering presents to kids? Whoda thunk it!!!

  14. #14

    Default Huh????

    Svehunter, I never even mentioned saying the "f" word. I wouldn't think of using it in a forum such as this. Where did that misinterpretation of what I said come from?

    My objection is blanking out the word "damm" (intentionally misspelled so it won't be censured).
    Now just why in the hell do I have to press "1" for English???

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    Member svehunter's Avatar
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    I tought you used the f word in your post,my bad

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    Thanks BRWNBR for the kind words, and you know I get a little riled up so my words dont always come out just right. Its seems easiest to point the fingers at guides in general but like I stated in an earlier post, more than any of this being blamed on the guides, I ultimately place the blame on the state and F&G truly. You guys are just caught in the middle of all this. As I continually hear about more and more restrictions whether they relate directly to me or not it just fires me up. Because the restrictions are set to equally affect the res and non-res hunter at the same time, and I just dont get it that no one sees this as unfair. Some call it whining but how can the state not mandate its own management of game to favor the said residents of that state. If only x amount of non-resident hunters could come up here and hunt in whatever unit then all these fly by night lower 48 based guides and asst guides wouldn't be popping up all over the place and the air charters might be able to accomodate more residents. The latest is fancy websites with competetively lower pricing than some of the long standing outfits and like guys have stated , they fly all the way up here drop $12K on a hunt and they are hunting with an asst. guide form Idaho and a Master guide that lives in Lousiana. This stuff must stop. There are way more people in the lower 48 with enough money to hunt Alaska than there are animals to be harvested. What gives?

    And BRWNBR Merry X-Mas to you too.

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    Default Who is to blame?

    Ultimately the rules of the "game" are controlled by your F&G. This situation that may need some tweaking has gone on too long to be easily solved.
    F&G will say its all about funding. Some of that can be helped by an increase in your $25 resident tag which you residents have to admit is a joke. The non-residents who can legally guide are doing so because your law allows it. If there is an attempt to stop it or "sunset" that, the State will be slapped with a class action faster than a grizzly can kill a blacktail.

    The simplest solution for the F&G is to start imposing a draw system for various units. Not many will like it but it will limit tags, access, pressure and harvest numbers. If we can't get along, the State will limit participation. Once again I have to ask does anyone know where the AK FNAWS is on this? Or, are they too busy planning their next banquet.

    Merry Christmas to all.

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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    The $25 tag is a joke.The animals are a resource managed for the residents of the state (or should be) as such all residents should foot the bill for their management and care (hunter and bird watcher alike) which such management should include all uses since we all utilize Alaskan wildlife in different ways.

    We hunters pay a tax on the equipment we buy, the tags and licenses etc...What do the bird watchers and environmentalists pay? What do the wildlife photographers pay? What do whale watchers pay? Instead of having fees at Glacier Bay, Denali etc...Fees for this, and fees for that there should be one stinkin natural resources department and wildlife subunit with one stinkin budget under the state and fed. User fees are stupid and applied inequitably.

    So yes you are correct that it is a joke, we should not be paying for tags at all.

    It's like having to pay for a tag every time you send a steer to the butcher, or pick a blueberry.

    America is being killed with taxes on top of taxes over the top of taxes. How many times and ways are you taxed that relate to driving your car? Hidden taxes are eating the middle class alive. Call it a user fee or a tax or whatever you want, but let's either go back to a truly free capitalist society or a socialistic one and get it over with.

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    i don't think fairness was thought of when anyone came up with any laws. BOG, f and g, the state and alot major landowners i think have some issue that need to be figured out.
    one change i wouldn't mind seeing...course it wouldn't effect me directly is limiting the number of guides a contracting guide can hire...some camps are running 10-15 guides/assitant guides. if you limited that down to 3 or 4, that outfitt would take up wayyy less space and not feel as threatened by other hunters. what happens is you have a guide in an area looking for 12 moose, a resident pops in with two buddies, looking for 3 moose. thats crimps that guides style big time. but if that guide was there only looking for three moose, the res showed up looking for 3, thats alot less pressure on the area and the guide as well.
    Where i hunt i'm usually looking for one bear or one sheep at a time. so another hunter out there don't really bother me much, they shoot one i shoot one and theres plenty of room. if i had the pressure to pull 10 bears outa there, i'd care alot more if 1 was taken out by a resident hunter. and i'd take up alot more country looking for those 10 bears. to big a footprint. if guiding outfits where kept smaller, guides would be more honest, cause they couldn't afford to screw clients over in the field. an outfitt running 40-70 clients a year can afford to piss off half of them and not care. you run 30 clients a year thats a different ball game.
    Also maybe instead of the state restricting guides to being just resident, the land owners who give out permission for land use could limit the permits to residents, that might be a bit more constitutional that the state trying to do it. Then any non res guide thats running camps with out a land use permit would be a felon (we went over all this before...lol) and get their own thread started on ODD.
    but money talks and the squeaky wheel gets greased.

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    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    The $25 tag is a joke.The animals are a resource managed for the residents of the state (or should be) as such all residents should foot the bill for their management and care (hunter and bird watcher alike) which such management should include all uses since we all utilize Alaskan wildlife in different ways.

    We hunters pay a tax on the equipment we buy, the tags and licenses etc...What do the bird watchers and environmentalists pay? What do the wildlife photographers pay? What do whale watchers pay? Instead of having fees at Glacier Bay, Denali etc...Fees for this, and fees for that there should be one stinkin natural resources department and wildlife subunit with one stinkin budget under the state and fed. User fees are stupid and applied inequitably.

    So yes you are correct that it is a joke, we should not be paying for tags at all.

    It's like having to pay for a tag every time you send a steer to the butcher, or pick a blueberry.

    America is being killed with taxes on top of taxes over the top of taxes. How many times and ways are you taxed that relate to driving your car? Hidden taxes are eating the middle class alive. Call it a user fee or a tax or whatever you want, but let's either go back to a truly free capitalist society or a socialistic one and get it over with.
    IMO this isn't any different than having to buy tags for an ATV or snowmachine so you can ride it off road vs paving trails and allowing bicyclists to roam free!

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