Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: let's talk about marking....

  1. #1
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default let's talk about marking....

    ARR and WR,

    I'd like to get your inputs on a 'marking program'.... Obviously if a retriever is going to be a good hunt test dog or field trial competitor, they MUST mark very well (exceptionally well if in field trials)....

    So, what 'training regimen/schedule' do you use to promote the best marking out of your dogs? A bullet list and diagrams/drawings would be great.....


    Also a discussion on bird placement might be fun as well....


    Juli
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  2. #2
    Member DucksAndDogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Palmer/Deadhorse
    Posts
    1,030

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuffboots View Post
    ARR and WR,

    I'd like to get your inputs on a 'marking program'.... Obviously if a retriever is going to be a good hunt test dog or field trial competitor, they MUST mark very well (exceptionally well if in field trials)....

    So, what 'training regimen/schedule' do you use to promote the best marking out of your dogs? A bullet list and diagrams/drawings would be great.....


    Also a discussion on bird placement might be fun as well....


    Juli


    Lardy's stuff.

  3. #3
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DucksAndDogs View Post
    Lardy's stuff.

    thanks, but I am well aware of Lardy, Evan Graham, Farmer, Aycock, and the programs available...

    I was more interested in an actual discussion....for everyone to learn and/or take from as they see fit....

    many people do not understand the importance of bird placement...or what it is (or is used for).....

    Juli
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  4. #4

    Default

    Just got done for the day. Wow....was it windy where I wanted to train. I had to relocate to another spot. I literally was walking sideways in that field. Had to down size and change my lesson to a parking lot in a none windy area.

    Hmmm .... marks.
    To start this discussion ...what level of dog are we talking about.
    Puppy, Junior level, early transition, late transition or all age?
    I can start off with a pup and walk all the way through. But when I'm done I might publish my first book. LOL

    Maybe we should start off with basic marking and build from there. So others reading can learn step by step. There may be some that aren't familiar with Lardy, Evan Graham, Farmer, Aycock, and the programs available.

  5. #5
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    yes, that's a lot of writing...for this post, let's begin with the beginners (6 months old) and go to early transition...........

    Juli
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  6. #6

    Default

    Juli, appreciate you starting this thread. I'll be taking notes on the sidelines

  7. #7

    Default

    Pup......
    I'm assuming not FF yet, but I do prefer it. I'm assuming also that this dog has been through basic obedience to include collar conditioning. If a pup won't return to me on retrieve or come when it's called I do not start field marking. I am also assuming a dog that has been introduced to birds.

    Lots of singles with little to no factors. Open areas where the pup is gauranteed success. Low cover, almost golf course short grass. During winter plowed areas. Start short and build in distance. I do a lot of walking singles. A single thrower that starts 20 or so yards away and then gradually walks further at an angle across the field. You need a thrower that also is properly educated to help the young pup to get into the fall area when the pup has difficulty. Use bumpers that are easily visible. White is primary during the summer and dark to black during winter. With a six month pup I may not go beyond 75yds or so. With some pups it over exerts them to run too much distance.
    Dogs that I get in for training have trouble with distance. Here's why. There pups get used to how far their owners can throw. They will run out and establish a hunt at that distance. So properly extending them out is important.
    I am primarily looking for momentum and confidence on marks. Following the KISS principle. While running marks I am still maintaining my obedience and establishing line manners.
    As I see the pup getting confident I then will challenge the dog with a little more cover, but not too much. Or maybe a little factor as a little wind, cross a shallow ditch and etc.
    Gotta go for now. I'll read what others say and add as I need to to fill in.

  8. #8
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    Baron,

    So once you are confident that the youngster knows that something is going to be thrown (which by 6 months I should hope would be a no brainer), and will run directly to the AOF and come directly back, then you begin introducing other factors....Are there particular factors you try to start with first? A 'program' if you will (such as this week, all marks will be across a road/trail, next week they will all be in taller cover - progressing as the pup shows understanding of each factor)

    with my last three pups I began throwing very short marks (less than 20 yds) into or across a patch of cover or terrain change when they were babies.... I found that they had a lot less problem dealing with such changes when we were doing actual field marks later on in their puppyhood....In fact I introduced them to as many types of terrain changes and cover changes as I could..both with 'puppy' marks and with recall drills.....But I have moved back in age a little bit.... LOL....


    also, what training sequence do you use to teach the various types of throws? (angled in, straight away, angled back) For my beginning dogs I start out with straight away throws, then do angled backs, then angled ins..I think the drill is the 'Y' drill???.....again, I introduce these concepts with simple short marks (in this case very little cover), always making sure there is pretty good distance on the throws (I want the pup watching the mark and where it is going, not the gunner)....

    I recently watched Bill Hillman's puppy dvd and he promotes the use of orange bumpers...Dogs don't see orange...So the pup had to put up a little bit of a hunt...I liked that. I liked to see the pup learning how to hunt the area... I don't know that I'd use orange bumpers for all of a young dog's marks, but I will definitely consider adding that 'element' in the future....Much would depend on the pup....If he was showing a lack of confidence or needing a lot of help, probably I would go back to white bumpers thrown in a little cover.....or, possibly white bumpers with no cover....
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  9. #9

    Default

    A few other tidbits that come to mind for pups.
    Don't be over exuberant on their retrieving. Don't go out and throw 50 retrieves. You aren't going to increase his birdiness or increase his prey drive by doing so. He was either born with it or he doesn't have any. Plus doing so will make retrieving dull and not fun. In fact down right tiring to do. I like to put pup away wanting more. That makes them more fired up the next time you bring them out.

    I like to throw long flat throws away from the gunner. This way the pups aren't encouraged to run at the gun but more straight to the area of the fall. Remember to that these marks are 25 to 75yds. Running longer marks than 75 again runs a high risk of teaching your pup to run at the gun instead of the fall area.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuffboots View Post
    So once you are confident that the youngster knows that something is going to be thrown (which by 6 months I should hope would be a no brainer), and will run directly to the AOF and come directly back, then you begin introducing other factors....Are there particular factors you try to start with first? A 'program' if you will (such as this week, all marks will be across a road/trail, next week they will all be in taller cover - progressing as the pup shows understanding of each factor)
    ....
    I keep in mind of what my training grounds have to offer. I pick a factor that isn't over the pups head and train on it for that day. I like to start short and then increase the distance. If problems occur I shorten up until the pup is successful on it again. I make a note of it. Readdressing it on another day or the same type of factor at a different location. I don't drive on the same thing for a week. I find it unproductive because repeated failures lead to loss in momentum and confidence. So if the pup had a bad day the day before I balance it out by running marks the next day that I know the pup is more successful at.
    Then go to another new factor...the next day..then back to an easy day...then back to the previous factor that caused problems.
    Does that make sense. It's late and I can't control my fat fingers on the key board much and think what I'm going to say next.

    [QUOTE=tuffboots;648060]also, what training sequence do you use to teach the various types of throws? (angled in, straight away, angled back) For my beginning dogs I start out with straight away throws, then do angled backs, then angled ins..I think the drill is the 'Y' drill???.....again, I introduce these concepts with simple short marks (in this case very little cover), always making sure there is pretty good distance on the throws (I want the pup watching the mark and where it is going, not the gunner)....
    QUOTE]

    Yes, I train this way as well.

    I'll get back with you again tomorrow evening after training is done.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    FAI
    Posts
    2,294

    Default I'm here, reading,

    Nice thought on the thread Juli. I will dive in a bit later as I've been busy on projects. A few thoughts and ideas.
    I am trying to look at this from the eyes of a new trainer. Can I understand what everybody is talking about? As silly as this sounds, I have to really think about what acronyms stand for. AOF, FF, FTP, etc. I am probably the weak link here, so help me out and spell it out.
    If anybody brings up the name of a "big gun" author/trainer, none of which I have read or watched DVD's of, maybe do the best you can to quote them succinctly. Not enough to plagiarize, but enough so we get the idea.
    Might also be beneficial to describe/define levels of training, i.e. puppy, junior, transition, etc. Not all folks will be looking at any type of competition, they just want a solid hunting companion, so how do their needs relate to different levels?
    I'll be back in a bit. I hope that D&D, 3CBRS and others weigh in also.

  11. #11
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    I think it would be great to have anyone interested to participate...The more the merrier!

    Juli
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  12. #12
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    Well, looks like the thread needs a little jump start....

    so how about a discussion about the "W" drill...so named because the 5 gun stations are placed at the points of the 'w'......

    This is a marking concept drill, usually singles, to help a dog learn skills needed for becoming a good marking dog...It can be used from puppyhood all the way to the 'finished' retriever....

    looking at this diagram, I'd like to see what people's opinion is of order of throws (singles) and successive multiples for the various levels of training.....(slightly downhill, low cover, wind west to east for young dogs; some terrain, road running behind E and going through B and C, for transition and finished dogs, wind east to west)

    puppy
    beginner
    transition
    finished

    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

  13. #13

    Default

    This drill can be run in many variances depending on what you wish to focus on for that day. This drill gets young dogs exposed to multiple guns.
    I set up stickmen, when I'm training by myself...dressed up in white overalls or dark overalls this time of year. If I have enough folks during my training groups these will be folks sitting in chairs.
    Personally I would run this drill inverted where I have 3 short guns first. I would train the short guns and then run the 2 long guns second. Teaching them to run the slot between the short guns.
    Next session I may run the long guns first and then run short guns. This teaches them to check down and not over run the short ones.
    I tend to run one of the outside guns as a hip pocket set up. The other two outside guns would be where the dogs have to run through the aof of the short gun to get to the long gun. For young dogs I would avoid running marks under the arc as your diagram shows.
    As I am training on this I wouldn't come to the same location to run the same thing. If I were to use the same field I would run from a different angle across the field or go to another location with the same setup.




    I would run these as singles for several days then run

  14. #14

    Default

    Sorry the wind here knocked our power out.
    As I was saying
    I would run these as singles and then run a double using one of the long outside guns and then the farthest away short guns as the go bird. As the dog is successful I would alternate getting the running line on the memory bird close together. Eventually running the outside hip pocket as a double and then the outside mark where the dog picks up the short bird and then runs through the aof of that gun to get to the memory bird as a double.
    I would show diagrams but I'm not that fancy with computers. My knowledge on computers is about as far as ARR's is. LOL

  15. #15

    Default

    Ahh I can see your diagram labeling now. I was on the iphone earlier due to power outage. Couldn't see the labels.

    I would move B over to the left of your D.
    Why? I find it easier to have three short marks to be successful on in case the slot training goes awry.

    Once I have trained on this concept for a while and they are successful then I would move to the upright W concept. Maybe flip flopping from an M to a W on occasion. This gives me more flexibility in marking concepts.

    Another thing that I see on your diagram that I would aviod. Hopefully there is quite some distance between B and C. If not there is some likely hood for confusion and a young dog may go to the wrong gun. I would think that I would focus on a young dog just being successful on running the slot. Having two long guns through the same slot is just too confusing at this stage. Maybe this setup for a mid to late transition dog.

    As I mentioned earlier. I would run some wide doubles at first after running all stations as singles. I may run singles for several lesson just to make sure the concept is solide before running double concepts on the same drill.
    Here is an order I would run for doubles.
    Throw A and then throw E as go bird.
    Now since I moved B to the left of D. I would throw C and then B.
    Then C and E.
    Then A and B.
    Gradually bringing the lines close together is the idea.

  16. #16

    Default

    coming in from the bullpen. Not trying to sound like I'm pounding the table over this wildrose kennels dvd but I think there are some good take'aways for the average trainer.

    He introduces doubles by running the dog along a straight edge (fence, side of a house, woodline...etc). He walks the dog on a lead and tosses a bumper (he calls this the memory bird) lets the dog mark it then says, "no heel" then turns 180 and walks for about 20 yards and tosses another bumper...once again saying, "no heel". Turns 180 again and walks toward the memory bird (about five yards or so) and sends the dog. Pup goes and gets the memory bird...brings it back then he sends the pup for the second bumper. Seems like a pretty simple way to introduce doubles...

    For the more advanced dog he teaches marking by using a helper with a couple bumpers. He sends the helper out in the field while he sits on a bucket using a broom stick as a gun with the dog sitting next to him. He starts off by pointing the broom stick directly at the helper...then the helper tosses the bumper mean while the trainer cues the dog by saying "watch" "watch" "watch" and following the trajectory of the bumper with the broom stick all at the same time. This allows the dog to mark off the gun. He states that if the dog has the mark then the trainer should not attempt to line the dog because any hands in the face could interfere with the mark.

    by all means I'm not trying to sound like a trainer nor have I done any of this. I'm just throwing out ideas that seem helpful from the video.

  17. #17
    Member Burke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    735

    Default 2 cents...

    I am not knowledgeable enough to add much to the converstion, but I do appreciate reading it.....
    I was introduce to the "W" drill by Bill Totten in Montana. I found it very useful and as Juli and Baron are saying there are multiple ways to use the setup.

  18. #18
    Member JuliW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Palmer, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    In re-reading my post, I should have emphasized there are many, many variations of this drill... you can run it inverted, as Baron has stated...marks thrown in different directions....Also you can run it as blinds and not marks....or with blinds incorporated....

    for puppy marks, they would be very short - long marks 50 yds, short marks 20 yds



    Juli
    Taxidermy IS art!
    www.alaskawildliferugs.com
    Your mount is more than a trophy, it's a memory. Relive The Memory!

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •