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Thread: Selling Dall Sheep Horns

  1. #1

    Default Selling Dall Sheep Horns

    The Alaska regs state that it is illegal to sell dall sheep horns w/skulls; however it is legal to sell just the horns. I am wondering the legality of selling a set of sheep horns with horn skull cap sawed off the remaining skull? Also, do the same laws exist once sheep skulls/horns are exported out of the state of AK? I've gotten conflicting answers from several taxidermists outside of Alaska.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Title 5 . Fish and Game Chapter 92 . Statewide Provisions Section 200. Purchase and sale of game

    5 AAC 92.200. Purchase and sale of game


    (a) In accordance with AS 16.05.920 (a) and 16.05.930(e), the purchase, sale, or barter of game or any part of game is permitted except as provided in this section.
    (b) Except as provided in 5 AAC 92.031, a person may not purchase, sell, barter, advertise, or otherwise offer for sale or barter:
    (1) any part of a bear, except an article of handicraft made from the fur of a bear;
    (2) a big game trophy;
    (3) a big game animal skull, except the skull of a wolf or wolverine, or a horn or antler that is still attached to any part of the skull;
    (4) the antler of a caribou taken in Unit 23, unless the antler is a naturally shed antler or has been made into an article of handicraft;
    (5) unsealed marten taken in Units 1 - 7, and 15, except as provided in 5 AAC 92.170(a) ;
    (6) unsealed beaver taken in Units 1 - 11 and Units 13 - 17;
    (7) unsealed land otter, lynx, wolf, or wolverine;
    (8) the meat of big game and small game, except hares and rabbits; however, caribou may be bartered in Units 22 - 26, but may not be transported or exported from those units.
    (c) Notwithstanding (b)(2) and (b)(3) of this section, a licensed taxidermist, estate executor, or bankruptcy referee, may sell a skin or trophy by permit issued under 5 AAC 92.031, and the state will, in its discretion, sell a skin or trophy as excess property. A person may purchase and possess an animal skin or trophy sold under this subsection. However, no person may resell a skin or trophy purchased from a seller under this subsection.
    (d) A person who engages in fur dealing, as defined in AS 16.05.940 , and who purchases or acquires, through consignment or barter, the raw skin of a furbearer or fur animal, shall report the transaction to the department on a form provided for this purpose, within 30 days after the last day of the month during which the transaction occurred.
    History: Eff. 7/5/85, Register 95; am 11/1/85, Register 96; am 8/8/87, Register 103; am 7/14/88, Register 107; am 8/20/89, Register 111; am 8/10/91, Register 119; am 5/5/93, Register 126; readopt 5/13/93, Register 126; am 7/1/98, Register 146; am 7/1/2002, Register 162; am 7/1/2003, Register 166; am 7/1/2004, Register 170; am 12/30/2004, Register 172
    Authority: AS 16.05.255
    AS 16.05.258
    AS 16.05.920
    AS 16.05.930
    Editor's note: At its November 9 - 11, 1992, January 19 - 28, 1993 meeting, the Board of Game readopted 5 AAC 92.200 in its entirety, without change, under ch. 1, SSSLA 1992 (the 1992 subsistence law), which repealed and reenacted AS 16.05.258 .
    it was also explained to me that you can not leave state and sell your trophy if that is your intent.
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    Page 16 of the reg book: Prohibited act: "Buying, selling or bartering horns or antlers, UNLESS they have been naturally shed or have been comp-letely removed from any part of the skull"
    For sheep you do not saw the horns off the skull cap. You can usually remove them from the bony projection that goes up into them. Somebody just might define those as "part of the skull".

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    Default Soak them in a bucket of water

    It is perfectly legal if you abide by the letter of the law (quoted above) and they are bought and sold all the time. Soak the horns and skull cap in a bucket of water for several days. You should be able to twist the "horns" right off the bony core.

    I've sold a lot of sheep horns that I haven't gotten mounted, or don't hold some other sentimental value.

    Later!

  5. #5

    Default Skull Cap

    I am curious why it is legal to sell sheep horns but not with the skull or skull cap? I can't really see how this is going to prevent a poacher from shooting a bunch of sheep and selling the horns (without skulls) for pretty good cash?

    Most taxidermists that want to mount a set of sheep horns can cast and make a repro skull cap or buy a repro skull cap or skull. If someone wants to mount a set of sheep horns..not having a skull or skull cap is going to stop them from mounting a sheep or any other critter? Am I missing something?

    I know each state is a little different. Here in Colorado bighorn sheep ram horns, skulls, or hide can not legally be sold unless the horns have been legally harvested and plugged. This seems like a pretty good way to curtail the sale of illegally killed sheep and other game?

    I have several pick up bighorn rams from Colorado and I can't legally sell them...kind of a bummer but it's the law! If dall sheep horns bring $250 to $500+/pair it seems like AK is opening sheep up to poaching for pretty good profit?

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    Member Milo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimss View Post
    The Alaska regs state that it is illegal to sell dall sheep horns w/skulls; however it is legal to sell just the horns. I am wondering the legality of selling a set of sheep horns with horn skull cap sawed off the remaining skull? Also, do the same laws exist once sheep skulls/horns are exported out of the state of AK? I've gotten conflicting answers from several taxidermists outside of Alaska.
    Alaska laws do not apply in other states. If its legal in that state, you can do it. However if you are transporting animal parts to another state just to conduct a sale and get around Alaska law, you get to deal with the Lacey Act - Federal Law.

    Of course this is only my understanding, not legal advice, but its worth every penny you paid for it.

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    JMSS,

    Theres a better way of getting the sheep horns off the skull if you want to save the skull without sawing off the horns...you can boil them off, they'll slip off with some work but therefore, you won't damage your skull or horns. The taxidermists know how to do this also if you don't want to do it, it does stink a little when its done. The skulls are worth something, because many people that lose their cape for several reasons, opt for a european mount, and since some hunters saw their skull at time of kill to cut pack weight, many wish they hadn't....CK

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    As Milo said, Alaska laws only apply in Alaska.
    Transporting a wildlife part to another state to conduct a LEGAL transaction in that state should not get you involved in the Lacey act.
    To understand our selling laws, you have to believe that Alaska residents are basically irresponsible killers and would kill and sell every last critter in tha state if allowed to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    To understand our selling laws, you have to believe that Alaska residents are basically irresponsible killers and would kill and sell every last critter in tha state if allowed to do so.
    Most states, if not all, have laws regarding the selling of sport caught fish and the meat from harvested big game animals. The laws were in reaction to market hunting. However, some states allow the selling of the antlers, horns etc. I can't really address why Alaska has stricter laws regarding antlers and horns. I can understand the prohibition for (there are exceptions) bear hides and ruges.

  10. #10
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    As Milo said, Alaska laws only apply in Alaska.
    Transporting a wildlife part to another state to conduct a LEGAL transaction in that state should not get you involved in the Lacey act.
    Very wrong! Transporting a wildlife part from a state to circumvent the law is EXACTLY what the Lacey Act is about. It is NOT a legal sale if your intent in removing it from state jurisdiction is to do something that would be illegal in that state.
    art

  11. #11

    Default Confused!

    Now I'm more confused than before my post! I seem to get nothing but conflicting info?

    I've gotten this narrowed down to being legal to bring my sheep horns and skull out of AK and then things get very blurry! I've had no problem getting the horns off the skull so that is not what I'm having problems with. I didn't originally bring the horns/skull home to sell but now that I have them out of AK is it legal to sell the skull or skull plate to someone to mount? I can't legally sell bighorn ram sheep horns and skulls here in Colorado and am about 99.99% sure there is no mention anywhere in our Colorardo game regs that mentions anything about selling dall ram horns/skulls?

  12. #12

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    Call Fish and Wildlife, they will straighten you out on the matter.

  13. #13
    hap
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    USFWS are as likely to give you the right answer as a Ouiji board... I can give a number of situations I contacted them about and every one developed into a different answer.

    The intent of Alaska law is to prevent the sale of trophies.
    The intent of the Lacey Act is to force you to honor Alaska law.

    The trophy is out of state and AK law applies through the Lacey Act only if your intent when you left AK was to get them out so you could sell them. Feds would likely question you pretty closely on your intent if they found out you sold them... And were looking to make a case...

    If I sold them I would sure do it quietly and develop complete, total, irrepairable amnesia about it... And an internet forum is the last place I would be mentioning it...

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    I can see the ad now. FOR SALE 2 sheep horns, $300 each or 500 for the pair. If you purchase them both I will gladly give you a scrap piece of bone I have laying around...

    I am not sure how I feel about it. Perhaps I can't fathom selling horns since I haven't actually managed to connect on a sheep. I guess if it is something you get every year then it may lose some of the appeal it has to me and would be worth selling as a way to alleviate the costs of the actual hunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimss View Post
    Now I'm more confused than before my post! I seem to get nothing but conflicting info?
    Maybe you should ask AWT.

    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    If I sold them I would sure do it quietly and develop complete, total, irrepairable amnesia about it... And an internet forum is the last place I would be mentioning it...
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I am not sure how I feel about it. Perhaps I can't fathom selling horns since I haven't actually managed to connect on a sheep. I guess if it is something you get every year then it may lose some of the appeal it has to me and would be worth selling as a way to alleviate the costs of the actual hunt.
    Many sold horns are picked up. I have only been in on half a dozen sheep kills, but as I type this I am looking at many more sets of horns that I have picked up.


    Jimss: How much is your market paying for sheep horns?

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    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Now I know...Horn hunters are portraying themselves as Hikers in Denali (seen it), I always wondered why these day hikers are taking such large frame packs into the park late spring. I know its against the law to pick up sheds or winter kill horns in the park, but then again who's gonna search them on the way out.

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    The intent of Alaska law is to prevent the sale of trophies.
    The intent of the Lacey Act is to force you to honor Alaska law.
    The above quotes should read:
    The intent of Alaska Law is to prevent the sale of trophies..........within Alaska.
    The intent of the Lacey Act is to force you to honor Alaska law.........while you are in Alaska.

    The Lacey Act has absolutely no jurisdiction over legally harvested wildlife parts.
    Perhaps Hap can referance actual cases where legal wildlife parts were sold in another state and buyer and seller were cited under the Lacey Act.
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  18. #18
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    The above quotes should read:
    The intent of Alaska Law is to prevent the sale of trophies..........within Alaska.
    The intent of the Lacey Act is to force you to honor Alaska law.........while you are in Alaska.

    The Lacey Act has absolutely no jurisdiction over legally harvested wildlife parts.
    Perhaps Hap can referance actual cases where legal wildlife parts were sold in another state and buyer and seller were cited under the Lacey Act.
    Clearly you lack the first clue about what the Lacey Act is and what it does.

    The intent of the Lacey Act has NOTHING to do with AK law in AK. It lacks jurisdiction; it is FED law, period. It is desgined to protect AK resources from those that would exploit them outside AK (or whatever state may be involved in any given situation).

    The Lacey Act is not interested in legal parts. The problem is your failure to understand what legal means (lawful, actually) in Alaska. It is illegal to sell AK trophies except under the estate definitions and abandoned trophies. It is illegal to take trophies out of state with intent to sell.

    That is where the Lacey Act steps in. The instant a trophy leaves AK to circumvent AK law it becomes an illegal trophy under AK law. But without jurisdiction AK can do nothing. In comes the Lacey Act and hammers the urine out of the offender with a federal charge far greater than the AK law and they give the miscreant the option to go back to AK and deal with them.

    The USFWS has a newsletter full of stories of Lacey Act use to nab people under many different circumstances. I did not look for the link, but I am certain Google is your friend on that one.
    art

  19. #19

    Default Still don't know?

    I guess I have a hard time figuring out how the feds w/ the Lacey Act can prove whether someone brought the horns/skull out of AK with the intent to sell or with the intent of mounting and put on their own wall? If someone has 20 horns/skulls they are selling I can see how it would raise some eyebrows but just 1 set? It seems like it would be their word against yours without any way of proving otherwise?

    I really don't think AK is ridding themselves of the "trophy" selling problem by merely having a law that states that skulls can't be sold? What about legally sold capes and the fact that horns and antlers can easily be used for mounting trophies on the wall without the skulls? I wonder how many hunters have lost a cape and had to buy a replacement to put their trophy on the wall?

    I am also curious if pickup horns/skulls are treated the same as sheep legally harvested with a license? I can't say I am for or against the current AK regs and they are somewhat confusing. This posts kind of shows that there are a lot of mis-interpretations ..and I'm still trying to figure them out?

    I do a lot of antler shed hunting in my spare time here in Colorado. The $ I get from sheds barely pays for gas but it is a lot of fun getting out and getting fresh air...and getting into hunting shape when hunting season is done for the year!

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimss View Post
    This posts kind of shows that there are a lot of mis-interpretations ..and I'm still trying to figure them out?
    No, what this post shows is that you should not seek legal advice on an internet forum.

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