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Thread: Modifying a Square End

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    Member ksbha4's Avatar
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    Default Modifying a Square End

    I have been searching through the archives but I haven't come across this particular question. In regarding square back canoes, some have said that paddling these particular canoes suck. How so? Could the problem be rectified by rigging a rudder when the outboard stays in the garage? Also, I see a lot of kudos going to Grumman, Scott, and a few other brands. What do these brands have over say, Old Town or Coleman. As you can see, I am starting to do my early research on a future investment (probably a craigslist special) and so I'm trying to get a good picture on what makes a canoe a good canoe. Sounds like Tohatsu makes a decent powerplant for this purpose.

    Out of sheer curiosity, do any of you take your power canoes on the Big Su?

    Thanks for all your input.
    Chris
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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Hydrodynamics-

    Square sterns lose it, especially in a following sea.
    I have a 17' Alumacraft with an hourglass stern which is a better design for such a situation but won't accomodate as big an outboard. Everything is a trade-off.

    Aluminum canoes are great for lakes but not so good for rocky rivers. They transfer cold right into your feet, and tend to be noisy as well. But they are very durable and stable.

    Don't have any experience with some of the brands you mentioned, but Colemans tend to get "hogged" in the middle due to their main strength being a piece of tubing running the length of the craft.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ksbha4 View Post
    I have been searching through the archives but I haven't come across this particular question. In regarding square back canoes, some have said that paddling these particular canoes suck. How so? Could the problem be rectified by rigging a rudder when the outboard stays in the garage? Also, I see a lot of kudos going to Grumman, Scott, and a few other brands. What do these brands have over say, Old Town or Coleman. As you can see, I am starting to do my early research on a future investment (probably a craigslist special) and so I'm trying to get a good picture on what makes a canoe a good canoe. Sounds like Tohatsu makes a decent powerplant for this purpose.

    Out of sheer curiosity, do any of you take your power canoes on the Big Su?

    Thanks for all your input.
    Chris
    You have a lot to learn regarding square sterned canoes. There are forum members who frequent this canoe forum who have all sorts of square sterned canoes so dont hesitate to ask as many questions as you want. I've had the privilege of meeting a few of them too.....so they as well as I are more than willing to answer questions and your are more than welcome to see my square sterned canoes as well. The scotts have a very wide stern that is raised too so that it doesnt "dig" into the water as much. The paddling efficiency is not there but having the option is a major plus. they tend to have keels too which really take away from your ability to quickly manuever with a paddle and as sayak had stated......everything is a trade off. the wide width of most worthy square stern canoes offer great initial stability....but take away from secondary stability. The coleman canoe you suggest is one layer of polyethlene and are lacking in the cargo department and do flex terribly. The grummans and osagians are very nice and good all around moose boat, the scotts are very handsome, tough, and vary in size too. The oldtown square sterned canoes are made of a multi layered system called crosslink 3 and it is tough as nails and about as rigid as Royalex. Being able to use a paddle is a nice quiet way of approaching weary fish and game.....all while being able to haul that moose meat back up river. I've been on the Big Su in my square sterned canoe and felt fine.....others may not though. It's the big lakes and big wind driven waves on larger rivers and lakes that you have to watch out for.......but then comes skill and an understanding of this issue. right now the canoe forum is a little "dead" due to the season, but give it a couple months and she'll light up with pictures, stories, advice, and all you will ever need to know.

    modifying a square sterned canoe to accept a rudder will help little if nothing at all. The width of them will still rob your speed, the keels will still rob you of quick manuevers, the weight will rob your speed, and the water coming off that square stern will take away from the prolonged glide of your paddle stroke. meaning....the second the paddle stroke stops.....she'll slow down quick where as a paddling canoe will continue to glide along for a good while before you dip the paddle again. I have a 17 ft. penobscot which is an extremely fast wilderness tripping canoe.......but i'd never think of modifying for use with a motor.....and i wouldnt modify my square sterned canoes for better use of a paddle.........

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    Default craigslist freighter advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ksbha4 View Post
    As you can see, I am starting to do my early research on a future investment (probably a craigslist special) and so I'm trying to get a good picture on what makes a canoe a good canoe.
    Well you're going about it the right way - doing early research - because when you do see a good freighter on the Anchorage craigslist you'd better have your book learning behind you cold hard cash in front of you and snap it up fast if its the right size/type for you. They move quickly, the few times that ownership of one actually changes hands.

  5. #5

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    The wider the stern the less efficient it will be to paddle but the more comfortable it will be as a power canoe.

    The advice about doing your research now is good. And apparently that is what you are doing.

    I bought a freighter on craigslist last year. It was barely salvagable and I paid too much for it but I'm still glad I got it.

    It's still not pretty but I took it moose hunting last fall and it got us a moose...well it got us into where we were able to get a moose. I don't think anything else could have made it in there except a tiny jon boat, and it would have been a bear to pack that moose out in a small jon boat. The canoe did it in one load.

    I still haven't found out the brand of canoe but it's 18 1/2 feet long, 48 inches wide, with a wine glass stern. I have a 10hp merc on it but I've paddled it a lot and it works fine. It has no keel and the stern comes to a point like the bow so it's fairly easy to paddle.

    Here is a short video of our trip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFPWRzMR8s
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    Member ksbha4's Avatar
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    Default

    Sounds like drag is the biggest issue with paddling a square stern. Mainer, I saw the picture that you uploaded a while back with your Discovery out on the flats,...that type of travel is just what I had in mind. I think that having a motor would suit me the best. However, if a sweet deal on craigslist comes up for a double ender, then I'll jump on it. I spent a good deal of time on this forum last night and I believe most my initial questions were answered. Pretty impressive that a canoe can haul out a moose. Can't wait for spring!
    Ask not what your government can do for you. Ask how your government can go away and get out of your life

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Wineglass stern...

    Quote Originally Posted by martyv View Post
    The wider the stern the less efficient it will be to paddle but the more comfortable it will be as a power canoe.

    The advice about doing your research now is good. And apparently that is what you are doing.

    I bought a freighter on craigslist last year. It was barely salvagable and I paid too much for it but I'm still glad I got it.

    It's still not pretty but I took it moose hunting last fall and it got us a moose...well it got us into where we were able to get a moose. I don't think anything else could have made it in there except a tiny jon boat, and it would have been a bear to pack that moose out in a small jon boat. The canoe did it in one load.

    I still haven't found out the brand of canoe but it's 18 1/2 feet long, 48 inches wide, with a wine glass stern. I have a 10hp merc on it but I've paddled it a lot and it works fine. It has no keel and the stern comes to a point like the bow so it's fairly easy to paddle.

    Here is a short video of our trip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFPWRzMR8s
    That is what I was looking for when i said "hourglass", which makes no sense. I like this kind of stern because the canoe still has the same shape as a double-ender at the water line, but has some of the practicality of a true square stern. I have had up to an 8hp on my 17 footer, but it was happiest with a 4hp.

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    Member ksbha4's Avatar
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    Default

    I believe sportsmans warehouse out here in Wasilla has a couple of canoes with a sort of wineglass end, but I don't know if you can stick an outboard on it. I believe the brand was Mad River but don't quote me on that.
    Ask not what your government can do for you. Ask how your government can go away and get out of your life

  9. #9

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    It really depends on what you are looking for. If you want to haul a bigger load a wider stern will give your canoe more capacity if everything else is the same on the canoe.

    If you are looking for more efficiency but still want to easily power the canoe the wineglass stern is nice.

    I had an alumacraft with a wineglass stern and I would say 5hp is about max. It must have been interesting with 8 hp.

    The canoe I have now also has a wineglass stern and is only a couple feet longer than the alumacraft but it is a much bigger canoe in all other ways and it will likely handle a 15, the 10hp is fine on it. The wineglass stern is more efficient than the wider square stern, but there are downsides as well.
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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default Interesting... yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyv View Post
    I had an alumacraft with a wineglass stern and I would say 5hp is about max. It must have been interesting with 8 hp.
    A little scary actually.

    I'd had an old Johnson 4 on it, but thought that was underpowered for a few feeder rivers off of the Wood River (BB). I bought a brand new 8 Evinrude and hung it on there along with outriggers made from ABS pipe. Even with that stability it had to be throttled back. I ended up making a spray rail around the stern to prevent water being thrown up. Eventually I began using the 8 for a kicker on a larger skiff, and went back to the 4 for the canoe. One thing that is nice about the Alumacrafts for powering is the sponsons at the bow.

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    Default No purpose for that kind of stern...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksbha4 View Post
    I believe sportsmans warehouse out here in Wasilla has a couple of canoes with a sort of wineglass end, but I don't know if you can stick an outboard on it. I believe the brand was Mad River but don't quote me on that.
    ... other than to accommodate an outboard.

  12. #12

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    Don't buy a square stern if you want to do any significant amount of paddling. The backwash against the stern creates serious drag, and paddling upstream is absolutely heartbreaking.

    We were out with another family -- they had a double ender and we had a square stern, same style canoe, same length. They were literally twice as fast as us without expending much effort.

    Buy two canoes, or, if you plan on paddling a lot, get a double ender with a small 2.5hp on a bracket out the side for times you want to motor. When you're done motoring, put the motor in the canoe and paddle away.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuckjgc View Post
    Don't buy a square stern if you want to do any significant amount of paddling. The backwash against the stern creates serious drag, and paddling upstream is absolutely heartbreaking.

    We were out with another family -- they had a double ender and we had a square stern, same style canoe, same length. They were literally twice as fast as us without expending much effort.

    Buy two canoes, or, if you plan on paddling a lot, get a double ender with a small 2.5hp on a bracket out the side for times you want to motor. When you're done motoring, put the motor in the canoe and paddle away.

    Or...get a wine stem stern and have the best of both worlds. Actually a canoe made for paddling will be a lot easier to paddle than any freighter.

    You could say that a wine stem freighter is the worst of both worlds as well.

    I like the two canoe route...I have a 14 1/2 foot strip canoe that is a sweet paddler and it only weighs 50 pounds.
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    Member ksbha4's Avatar
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    Default two canoes

    I think that having two canoes will be the direction I will eventually go. I like the idea of being able to sneak up on ducks with a paddle, but also to be able to haul out a moose under power. So until then, I'll keep watching craigslist!
    Ask not what your government can do for you. Ask how your government can go away and get out of your life

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    Default

    You have to ask yourself "what is my primary use for this canoe?" If the answer is moose hunting you need max load cap and you will trade that for paddlebility(new word I made up). I have a Coleman Bayou 16 which is an awesome machine for the price and for MY uses. I take my twins four year olds out on small lakes fishing and I duck hunt out of it alot-perfect. I also use it salmon fishing and it is great for that as well. I have not had a problem with it, I do paddle some while fishing after I motor in. I would not want to paddle it for miles. Good luck in your quest and enjoy whatever you buy. I spent $400 for it and got a 5hp motor for another $35 all on C list last year-score

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    Default the correct canoe ??

    just remember there no single boat / canoe that will do all the jobs we want to do, as a boater or canoest we do the best we can do with the amount of money we want / can spend on our play toys an have fun with them, so enjoy what you have an catch some fish or moose see you on the stream

    SID

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    Default Pelican

    I have a Pelican 16.5' Scanoe with a Honda 2hp short shaft 4 stroke outboard. The outboard is 2nd to none and powers the scanoe fully loaded perfectly. Honestly, I wouldn't want to go much faster, although the Scanoe specs for a maximum of 5hp. The scanoe cruises lakes like a dream. I've taken it in some small rivers as well. The construction material is a Ram-X material that's real resistant to rocks and retains its shape well after high impacts. The floor is ridged. I've paddled it a few times and it's a tank, I wont lie. Although, it does move along and carry some good momentum. I think I paid around 600$ brand new, which is fairly cheap compared to some other models I looked at around AK. The motor was about 900, but it's great. Sips the gas, always starts, and will run forever. Good luck

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