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Thread: I Swore To Myself...

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    Default I Swore To Myself...

    Now I'm swearing at myself. I have been trying to avoid the contention that it seems I could not keep out of by not posting here, but I have to relent as I know I can get the answer I need here (and the Go go Varmint go message board has been down!).

    I have a couple of questions relating to the 6.5 Remington and 6.5-284.

    One is case capacity for both.

    Two goes like this:

    I do not have one source for load data to compare both cartridges in terms of velocity. What I have seen tends to favor the 6.5-284 a fair amount, but I am skeptical especially since the Remmington is belted. So the question is how velocity compares.

    It is more for curiosity and to make a thoroughly informed descision than anything as I fully intend on going with the 6.5-284, but I like the peace of mind knowing that I considered all factors.

    Velocity is not a heavily weighted criteria for me, just trying to reconcile what little I am able to find.

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    Default More Swearing...

    RainGull,

    Sorry you were stuck with your last choice.

    Doesn't matter to me if or when you swear to, at or by your self, but I have the answers to your questions.


    Case Capacity (to the top of the case mouth)
    6.5-284 -------90.0 grains (of water rounded up to nearest whole unit.)
    6.5-06 -------- 93.0 grains "
    6.5 Rem Mag -- 100.0 grains "
    264 Win Mag -- 117.0 grains "


    Max velocity with 140 grain bullet from 24" barrel.
    6.5-284--------2925 fps.
    6.5-06---------2894 fps.
    6.5 Rem Mag---2949 fps.
    264 Win Mag---3068 fps.

    These velocities are with my loads and my chronograph, your mileage may vary.

    If you're contemplating a caliber the 6.5-284 Norma is the most efficient, the most accurate and the bestest of the bunch listed.

    Have a Merry Christmas or whatever it is you celebrate this time of year.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Thanks a million! Do you know what the difference in chamber and brass are from 6.5-284 Norma and the Norma Match? Does it just have a longer neck for longer bullet seating? No biggy, just trying to differentiate between these and the Shedanne and Win varieties of 6.5-284.

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    Default The Wonderful 6.5-284...

    RainGull,

    There is only one. And it is an almost perfect design from the beginning.

    Probably that first day back in 1963 when someone first saw the 284 Winchester they said, "I've got to neck that down to .264"."

    For more than three decades that was a wildcat caliber and was used for everything from 1000 yds bench rest to a mountain rifle for Argali sheep in the mountains of Iran. It was of particular interest in Europe as a match rifle where the 6.5 bore was established as a winner (6.5x55) but was banned in some countries due to it's military roots.

    Finally then, in 2001, Norma Precision of Sweden received CIP acceptance for the 6.5-284 in it's original dimensions, to standardize the caliber. And, the 6.5-284 Norma was born. The same way Remington brought the 22-250 Remington, the 257 Remington-Roberts, the 260 Remington. They didn't design it just trusted the decades of dedicated riflemen to know a good round.

    It is really this countrys first short, fat, beltless magnum. 30-06 case capacity in a 308 length. The 284 case is a very good design from the start. I just never liked it's rebated rim but that isn't a draw back at all just my quirk.

    The case is 2.170" long, body diameter.500",rim diameter .473, (std 308/30-06 bolt head), it has a 35 degree shoulder, and a neck length of .272".

    The Norma CIP dimensions are very slightly different from this but just in the shoulder angle (35.12 degrees) and the length to the shoulder is .002" shorter (match chamber headspace dimension). There is only one and Lapua and Norma make correctly headstamped brass and ammo for the caliber. Several U.S. makers and a couple of majors will make rifles in the caliber. Dan Cooper can't make enough of his classic in this caliber. It is the caliber I used to shoot my first 1000 plus prairie dog, (1142 yds) and it has been used to win ALL major long range matches here and abroad.

    It is the basis for many good mountain rifles. For a match gun it is usually made in a 30-06 length action to seat the longer 160 grain match bullets, but in a varmint gun or mountain rifle it can be made in a 308 length rifle and shoot up to 140 grain bullets. My preference would be a pre-64 M70 action since they are a midlength action any way, I converted a 308 f/w to a mountain gun back in the eighties. My doggin' rifle was an expensive custom action with a 24" E.R.Shaw barrel. It would shoot in the low two's.
    Five shot group sizes measured .200"

    If you're startin' to get the feeling I like this caliber you might be right. I am a big fan of .264 calibers. I think the 25-06 and 270 are a waste of good brass but the 6.5-06 is purrrfect! The 6.5-284 is more accurate than the 6.5'06 and better than the 6.5 SKAN at the long line.

    There are loads of good bullets, both hunting and match and data is available in almost every manual. This is as good as it gets for a handloader/shooters rifle.

    Post Script; It's not a good bear caliber.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default

    Awesome write up! Many thanks.

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    If anyone else is interested in this cartridge, here are some links that might be of use:

    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek044.html
    http://www.6mmbr.com/SixFive284.html
    http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337
    http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/wildcat_0612/
    http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthrea...11&an=0&page=3

    Merry Christ Mass, Hanukka, Festivus, Kwanzaa, Yule, Solstice (though now past), and Boxing day, to you all as well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    Thanks a million! Do you know what the difference in chamber and brass are from 6.5-284 Norma and the Norma Match? Does it just have a longer neck for longer bullet seating? No biggy, just trying to differentiate between these and the Shedanne and Win varieties of 6.5-284.
    I usta know a guy who did 1000yd BR and used the 6.5-284. He spoke about 2 different versions, maybe the Winchester and the Norma.

    I think the difference is in the size of the case head, but I dunno for shore, and I'm probly rong.

    I'd ask the question over on the 6mmBR forum. I should think someone there would know.
    Smitty of the North

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I usta know a guy who did 1000yd BR and used the 6.5-284. He spoke about 2 different versions, maybe the Winchester and the Norma.

    I think the difference is in the size of the case head, but I dunno for shore, and I'm probly rong.

    I'd ask the question over on the 6mmBR forum. I should think someone there would know.
    Smitty of the North
    Smitty,

    When did Winchester ever make a 6.5-284?
    They didn't, so there could not be a Winchester version.

    For a lot of years we made 6.5-284 brass by necking down the Winchester 284 brass. It was called the 284 leopard, among other things, but mostly was just the 6.5-284. It was a wildcat not a standard factory caliber.

    Then once upon a time, in 2001, Norma standardized the 6.5-284 wildcat. In doing so, some minor changes were made. One of particular interest was to reduce the dimension to the shoulder datum line to which headspace is measured by .002". This basically means if you had an old wildcat 6.5-284, the fired brass will not go into the chamber of a rifle chambered in 6.5-284 Norma. (The new Norma brass will work well in the old wildcat chamber.) Norma and Lapua then began to make brass for and correctly headstamped to "6.5-284 Norma". There are two 6.5-284's I suppose if you want to call one the old wildcat and the other the new 6.5-284 Norma. The original old wildcat and the new Norma version both have the same .473" cartridge head.

    All new factory chambered rifles are 6.5-284 Norma, not 6.5-284 "somethingelse".

    Do your friends over at the 6BR forum have a different answer?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Murphy:

    As I said, I don't recollect all the details about the differences.

    He had the 6.5-284 that he used for 1000 yd BR, and one that was a sporting rifle, which I considered buying. They were DIFFERENT.

    I’m not trying to pass myself off as an expert of the 6.5-284 or anything else. Maybe you are, and if so, perhaps you can clear up some of the confusion.

    The man asked…. “the difference in chamber and brass are from 6.5-284 Norma and the Norma Match?”

    You said…. “There is only one.” I’m sure that is not the case.

    I can’t say that I have “friends” over at the 6mmBR forum, but at least they are friendly. I sometimes find them to be a valuable resource.

    Have a nice day
    Smitty of the North

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    Murphy:
    As a follow up, to my previous post, I visited the 6mmBR Forum and found the following post there.

    """""#1 I have ran accross what seems to be 2 different versions of the 6.5x284, a norma and a win. Are they the same? Is one better than the other?"""""

    Upon consulting the data base of my "Load from a Disk" software, I find TWO 6.5-284 cartridges mentioned. They are named the 6.5-284 NORMA, and the 6.5 284 WINCHESTER. They have DIFFERENT dimensions, and DIFFERENT case capacities.

    Simply, because Winchester didn't make a 6.5-284 cartridge doesn't mean there isn't a version that is called the "Winchester Version". Obviously, there is one.

    I hope that helps.
    Smitty of the North

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    Default More 6.5-284 Norma's

    Smitty,

    There is only one 6.5-284 Norma.

    As to the 6.5-284 Norma Match...there are many. A match chamber is a custom chamber, varying in dimensions generally just in neck diameter, such as .296" but may be .294" or .290" and thus custom dies (see Reddings bushing neck dies) to size the neck correctly for your bullet in your chamber. Some Gunsmiths who specialize in custom BR guns will also have some "secret" dimension or two that is slightly different from the STANDARD CIP or SAAMI dimensions. Those are called custom chambers. You can get a custom chamber in any number of calibers, 260 Rem, 308 Win, and 6BR Rem and 6.5 BR, 6.5 SKAN, 6.5 PPC......ad infinitum, ad naseum

    You may find drawings for different dimensions with the name 6.5-284. There are at least a couple of reasons for that.
    One: They are wrong.
    Two: The variations are no more than about .002" and won't matter and the ammo is interchangable.
    Three: They are taken from the necked down 284 Winchester brass which must be run through a 6.5-284 Norma die to fit a 6.5-284 Norma chamber.

    Also, a custom maker may/will stamp on the barrel anything you want to denote you very own special 6.5-284 Screamin' Demon, but a 6.5-284 Norma it won't be.

    When Norma standardized the 6PPC round it was made with "normal" neck dimensions which was different from the well established 6PPC bench rest round and to denote the differences Norma called it the 6PPC USA. There is only one 6PPC USA. This ammo should not be fired in 6PPC chambers.

    There is only one (1) 6.5-284 Norma. Commercial round, CIP accepted, Hornady, Norma and Lapua make brass that is headstamped "6.5-284 Norma.

    I have owned and shot four of these. One was a sporter 6.5-284 Win wildcat. Two was a custom chambered, (neck and shoulder dims) target rifle which I put 2500 rounds through in three years.
    Three was a Borden built heavy varminter which would shoot 10 shots into a dime at 200 yards. It was a 6.5-284 Norma with a custom neck dimension of .296". I load it with a loaded neck diameter of .294", I turn my necks for this one.
    Four is a Cooper Classic with a standard 6.5-284 Norma chamber. The best it will do on a calm day is .250" groups at 100 yards. I shoot factory Lapua brass.

    There is an array of cartridge case dimensions published, posted or printed that are different from the SAAMI/CIP accepted dimensions. I can't speak to all those dimensions, but when a caliber is submitted to SAAMI/CIP, case and chamber dimensions are approved/verified/certified or what ever it is called and by what ever technique is used and that is our new cartridge.

    Unless someone has recently slipped in a new 6.5-284 something-or-other, there are just those mentioned. There may be a 6.5-284 Sasquatch, there may be a 6.5-284 Melquides and there may be a 6.5-284 Edi Amin but, there is only one 6.5-284 Norma. There is only one 30-06 Springfield, there is only one 308 Winchester and there is only one 6.5-284 Norma.

    I do appreciate any and all opinions, and no one has to agree with all or even part of what I say. I like a good discussion and try to stay on the lighter side of things. If I'm wrong, that's nothing new, I'll admit it.

    I wanted RainGull to know that there is a standard caliber and it can be ordered and brass and ammo can be found for it.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Murphy:
    The fact that there is only one, 6.5-284 (Norma) is not in contention.

    Apparently, there are at least 2, 6.5-284 cartridges in common use. One is the Norma, and one is called the Winchester version.

    According to “L F a D” the Winchester version is .029 longer to the shoulder, .021 less, to the neck, and .010 less in length, and only ..642 case capacity, (Grains Water). I know that doesn’t’ sound like much, but I had the distinct impression that the ammunition wasn’t interchangeable, for his purposes anyway.

    As for the Norma Match, I haven’t found the dimensions, although I found it listed on a Reamer makers sight. I didn’t go any further with the search.

    The 6.5-284 Susquatch sounds like a great name, don’t you think?

    Smitty of the North

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    Default The 6.5-284 Sasquatch

    Smitty,

    Yes, you're right, the original Winchester 284 necked down to .264" is different from the Norma version. I did say that in the beginning.

    (The Norma CIP dimensions are very slightly different from this but just in the shoulder angle (35.12 degrees) and the length to the shoulder is .002" shorter (match chamber headspace dimension). There is only one and Lapua and Norma make correctly headstamped brass and ammo for the caliber.)

    I was running from memory for this whole 6.5-284 Norma posting since I haven't fired my 6.5's in over two years (Geez! Has it been that long? My 6.5's arent in the state of Alaska, sniff!) and I think the difference in dimensions is in error. I think it is .0029" not .029". The exact amount of change was metric (CIP) so it comes out however, but that seems like a lot. I have fired the Norma in the Winchester chamber and that went ok so I don't think it's .029", but I could be wrong. But anyway your point is well taken.

    Commercial rifle makers will not make a wildcat chambered rifle, they will only make the SAAMI/CIP standard and that is, yeah, you guessed it, Norma. All commercial ammo is for it as is all commercial headstamped brass, 6.5-284 Norma. Sooooo...from that stand point there is only one. Custom makers will make anything you want to pay for. I know because I have bought 64 reamers and custom die sets over the years for my own creations. I even make my own chamber reamer drawings and that is used for both chamber and dies. Four of those were on the 284 Winchester case.

    Many of the long line shooters still use the Winchester brass and their custom dies. This brass however may get to be scarce. Since the intro of the Norma and commercial brass, Sales of the Winchester 284 brass dropped and therefore Olin doesn't make it as often so they sell less so....

    Anyway the 6.5-284 Sasquatch will have a longer body, shorter neck and hold .84 grains more water. And of course it will have 400 fps more velocity but will kick a lot less.

    Thanks for all your input and keeping me on some kind of track.

    Post Script; I wonder what RainGull thinks of all this bantor?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Murphy:

    Hopefully RainGull isn’t too confused.

    ”Custom makers will make anything you want to pay for. I know because I have bought 64 reamers and custom die sets over the years for my own creations. I even make my own chamber reamer drawings and that is used for both chamber and dies. Four of those were on the 284 Winchester case.”

    I keep getting interested in 6.5 caliber, but I like 7mm better, I guess.

    As someone who has had reamers made, (64, Wow) how expensive is it to have both reamers and dies made? How many sources of reamers are there?

    I’m considering a 7mm Wildcat, and I ain’t never did nuthin like that, but I'm brave.

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North

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