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Thread: Silver Lab question....

  1. #1
    Member tjm's Avatar
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    Default Silver Lab question....

    I was curious about these attractive looking dogs so I googled it and read these 2 conflicting articles...

    http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm
    http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

    one article says "Good" and the other says "Bad"

    anyone know the history of these dogs?

    again, I'm just curious is all, not interested in one....I've got my hands full with a 'brown' dog....
    ------------------------------------------------
    pull my finger....

  2. #2

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    I'm certainly no expert on genetics. But this is how I understand it.
    The silver gene is carried in chocolate lines. It is a recessive gene and in the natural world pops up very rarely. Sorta like the frequency of albinoism in other species of animals. Like whitetail deer for example.
    Another way to think of it is also closely argued in the retriever gene pool. Pointing labs. That too is related to genetics. So some retrievers have more of an ability to do this than others.
    So breeders are taking dogs that are known to carry the silver traits and are breeding to other dogs with the same trait make the silver gene a more prevalent outcome. Breed into the same gene pool over several generations and eventually silver will becomecthe dominant gene.
    The same goes for the pointing gene.
    At least this is how I understand it. I can say that I have trained several and they train and handle no differently.
    There is a lot of political postering on this subject. I too will be curious on how this all plays out. Personally I think anything way beyond the standard (colors)should be avoided and not allowed.

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    Default How long is your stick.

    The stick you are poking the hornets nest with? A lot of folks have read the same things you have. Some want to believe in the genetic possibility of it all. They want to believe that silver was always a color, just not accepted, so therefore culled.
    If that is the truth, then why did it take so long for them to "come out"? If silver is ok in a lab, then why is that not a 4th color choice for labs to be registered with? All silvers are registered as chocolates.
    Frankly, I believe the breeder that most research points to is culpable. The same guy that had labs and Weimeraners. Even though some articles talk about silver being around a long time ago, there is no proof of that. No pictures, nothing. Look at the heads on silvers, and the eyes. Pretty houndy looking on the ones I've seen.
    I've done labs since the late 70s. I never heard about silvers that far back, nor did I ever hear about them when I traveled field trial circuits in the states, trained and worked with pros, or trained with friends throughout the pacific NW down to CA.
    I personally think AKC has allowed a problem to develop by not using more controls when they found the issue was showing up. Now they can't hardly go backwards.
    People who support silver will speak up about yellow labs. When they do, they hurt their own position as a philosophy about yellows parrallels that of the silver. Maybe in time the hound will be bred out of the silver enough so that they start to look more lab like again.

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    Default I'm willing to read

    I understand genetics fairly well. I have been known to read the occasional scientific journal, especially related to dogs. I also enjoy reading historical information on hunting breeds.
    With that said, if anybody supporting the theory that silver is recessive to chocolate has supporting information from a published veterinary source from 150 years back, or 100 years, or 75 years, or even 50 years, I'd be willing to look through it.
    I'm not interested in reading current forum threads from anonymous authors, even though they were fun. If the proof that silver is naturally occuring in labs is available, and that it was not introduced via another breed such as the Weimeraner, then I am willing to change my stance on this subject.
    Again, we are not talking about he history of yellow labs. We are not talking about the possibility that a kennel in Oregon introduced hounds to their line 30 or so years ago. We are not talking about a "Super" line of labs, several of which I had the honor to train and run, that had significant hound traits.
    If this trait is normal in labs, then why has AKC not accepted it and offer it as an option?

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    Default

    What about Golden Labs. The father of my dog was a registered lab and I could swear it was registered as a golden lab. I don't have here paperwork here with me at the office so I could be wrong. Anyone know?


    I'd never heard of such a thing until I got my dog 10 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickL View Post
    What about Golden Labs. The father of my dog was a registered lab and I could swear it was registered as a golden lab. I don't have here paperwork here with me at the office so I could be wrong. Anyone know?


    I'd never heard of such a thing until I got my dog 10 years ago.
    AKC only recognizes Yellow, Chocolate, and Black.

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    Default colors

    Yellow is anything from white to fox red. A pretty wide range is accepted. Chocolates can be light to dark, but are not yellow. Blacks can have some white, like on their chest or feet, but most breeders have tried to breed that out of them.
    Sometimes a yellow/black breeding will produce white markings on the black. If you go back and look at the yellow closely normally that marking is there.
    Silver, just to drive the point, is not accepted by AKC. Neither is pink, or chartruese.

  9. #9
    Member 3CBRS's Avatar
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    My main problem with silver Labs is that breeders advertise them as "rare", "very rare", or "designer" dogs. People buy them because they are "different" & often don't look at health clearances, pedigrees, structure, or the breed standard (color to conformation). If you want a silver/gray dog, why not get a Weim????

    Karen

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    Default Designer dogs

    If you want a designer dog, get a POOCHIE. They come in all sorts of colors including PURPLE!

    Oops, was that my inside or outside voice?

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    Default My Silver is Definately All Lab

    I have a Silver and a Yellow Lab. Other than their color they look very similar. I have had my Silver next to a Weimer, other than the color their is no other similarity. Does that mean that his great great great great great great great great grandfather might have been a Weimer? No but who cares! He looks like a lab, acts like a lab, and hunts like a lab. He's a good dog and I wouldn't trade him for any dog. Now my Yellow puppy...you can have her! Kidding...sort of...

  12. #12

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    Just curious....were both parents of your pup silver?
    or was one chocolate and the other silver?
    or were they both chocolate?
    Can you go back into the pedigree and pick out what the colors were?
    It may be hard....cause AKC list silvers as chocolates on the pedigree...unless the breeder kept good records and passed along there version of the pedigree you may never know.

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    Default Silver Lab Pedigree

    Yes all of the dogs listed on his Pedigree were listed as chocolates. Although AKC officially registers Silvers as Chocolates they add (silver) next to the chocolate designation. So you could say he is registered as a Silver.

    I really don't care.

    It wouldn't suprise if Weimer's were introdued many years ago to get the color. But if you think that there have been Yellow Labs for hundreds of years, you are sadly mistaken.

    Dogs have been crossbred since the beginning of time. I find it comical that someone can draw a line in the sand and say after a specific time period, there can be no new variations in dogs.

    BTW, I have seen few "real labs" who swim as good as he does. Otters would love to have his tail (check out a Weimer tails - most are docked)

  14. #14
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    Default

    err to the question..... what dog is TRULY a purebred..... most dogs are a combination of dogs and after 10-15-20 yrs are classified as "purebred", I grew up with a long line of dobermans, we bred them registered them ect...everyone always fought for the red and blues... but the TRUE doberman was a mut waaaaay back when... who and what makes a purebred determination... and why ?

    If you cant stand behind the troops in Iraq.. Feel free to stand in front of them.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaLabLover View Post
    But if you think that there have been Yellow Labs for hundreds of years, you are sadly mistaken.

    I would counter with - if you think any labs as we know them today have been around hundreds of years you are mistaken. From what I just read labs were developed in the early 1800s primarily from the St. Johns Waterdog. The name Labrador retriever became common in England around 1870. 1st yellow on record was 1899, 1st AKC Registration was 1917, the chocolates emerged in the 1930's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador_Retriever

    I know this can be a sensitive issue - no one likes having our beloved pets questioned and from what you said it sounds like you have a wonderfull dog - If you are happy that is what matters. What normally gets called into question is the breeding practices that some will employ to get the latest designer dog just to make money. Usually tends to be some family trees without a lot of branches and everything else gets lost in the quest for color.

  16. #16

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    National Geographic ...I believe it was...once had a good program on about "The Dog". It talked a lot about how man over time has bred many different variations to suit specific needs. Wonderful program that really explains a lot of dog history and origins. Since dogs have two "seasons" a year man was able to quickly change characteristics and appearances of the dog. In past history...way back...the dog was used and fine tuned for hunting of game big and small. And also for protection.

    Yes, their are a lot of breed fanciers that breed for profit.(Not just today but through out history) They seem to be diluting the gene pool. Which is why breed standards were formed and thus breed names and titles. Such as the Labrador Retriever,other hunting breeds and other breeds registered. So that breeds could maintain the same look, appearance and traits for which they were originally bred for. That too is why parent clubs like the AKC, UKC, CKC and others were formed. To keep tract of "approved" stud dogs and dames for dogs in their breed registery.

    Yes, new breeds can be brought about. Lots....even today...we seem to see lots of fancier breeds popping up. A cross of this and a cross of that. Not saying they aren't nice dogs....just saying they are ...as of yet...not approved by any registery standards.

    I am not stirring the pot about silvers. As I explained earlier, I have my own opinion on their origins. Can I prove it....NO. But I have trained enough to know they are great dogs right along beside the other labradors I have worked with.

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    Default You Proved My Point

    Once upon a time there was only a black lab. Likely the black lab was bred with other types of dogs to acquire the yellow and chocolate colors. However, no one questions the legitmacy of a yellow or a chocolate.

    As far as the "quest for color", one of the deciding factors in everyone's choice for selecting a dog is the attractiveness of a dog. No one wants an ugly dog (well other than chihuahua owners...). In recent years Yellow's have been the most sought after lab for that reason.

    I didn't select my Silver lab, I probably wouldn't have if it was up to me. But I am VERY happy with him. He's my buddy.

    My Yellow is a stunner. But she doesn't hold a candle next to my Silver.

    Enough of this, its warm outside and I know two LABS that want to go on a LONG walk.

  18. #18
    Member BIG 27's Avatar
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    Default my designer dog

    First off AKC does recognize silver factored labs as offspring from the chocolate labradors. My silver lab kinley will be 2 yrs old in July.She is my third lab I have owned and trained and she is very smart and has more hunt drive than any other lab I have ever owned. At 8 months old she was doing full open water duck retrieves with more enthusiasm than most labs I have seen.When the gun goes off she is looking for a dead bird. She is my pride and joy and is absolutely spolied. I really don't appreciate the comments calling silver labs designer dogs as she will run circles around most of the Labradors I have been around.Opinions are just that!!!! A million dollars wouldn't buy her.

    Looking for a silver lab stud.

    Tim
    7408918626
    ďA man does not climb a mountain without bringing some of it away with him,and leaving something of himself upon it -- Sir Martin Conway

  19. #19

    Default

    These opinions, points of view and arguments, while interesting are of no value. The control of the breed standard and hense the breed is the LRC or labrador retreiver club. They are the ones you will need to convince if you want to legiitimze the color. They are the only ones who can make it a recongnized color. Until then, they remain with the labradoodles. some good dogs there, and capable, but not recongized for what they are. Good luck bringing the club around. Personally, I think it a fools errand.

    Just for the record, chocolate genes and yellow genes were around in the 1800's. See

    http://www.lorkenfarms.com/chocolate_lab_lines.htm

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    Default Quite frankly

    I could care less about what you appreciate or don't. What I care about is the breed. And it is people, much like you, that has or will screw up a great breed of dog simply to further a personal agenda.
    Opinion? Not on our end. Everything we've talked about is supported by facts. You state that AKC recognizes the silver factored labs. Great. I have yet to read that, so I look forward to you posting that information to educate me as well as others. As a student of this breed I feel a responsibilty to read everything that comes across my view to become more informed, regardless if it supports my position.
    Interesting that even with the number of silver labs increasing, and the number of backyard breeders increasing, that the LRC and AKC have yet to sign off on silver labs.
    Several veterinarians in Fairbanks alone have seen multiple issues with the silvers that are coming into town and being bred here. In speaking with a veterinarian who specializes in genetics, another theory develops. That theory is that the silver may have developed by inbreeding chocolates. Does that support your theory? Yes. So far that idea has been singular and I do not find supporting data. Let's say it is true. Inbreeding creates huge issues for a breed, and many of those issues show up in the silver lines. Interesting conundrum.
    Whether the issues developed from inbreeding or from introducing another line of dogs to the labrador, the problems still exist.
    Love your dog. She deserves that. But do the breed a favor and verify that she carries nothing but solid traits to pass on to her progeny. Verify the same for a sire. At almost 2 years of age she is too young to have completed a full scope of tests to ensure that she is in fact great breeding stock. Do the right thing, not the emotional thing.

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