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Thread: Picture of a 200 grain .358 Hornady that failed.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Default Picture of a 200 grain .358 Hornady that failed.

    Now that I'm finally home......I found the bullet that I recovered from the neck of the young bull moose I shot back in 08(with my 358 Winchester). As I've stated before.....the bullet was doing fine until it hit the shoulder bone of the exit side of the young bull. Upon hiting that shoulder.....the bullet fragmented into pieces, the copper jacket seperated from the core......and the lead core tumbled up the front quarter and exited. The copper jacket was found against the hide in the neck (near that front quarter). The wound channel was so extensive that I lost at least 30-40% of one front quarter because of this violent bullet upset. I will never use this bullet on moose again. The word "interlock" to me......is false advertisement. My opinion of a true bonded core is the 250 grain speer hot-cor. When you pour moulten lead into a surprisingly thick copper jacket.....good things happen in the field. I depend on bullets that won't break the bank.......so I hope this field report of the interlock will help others choose affordable bullets for which to hunt big game in Alaska.
    In the picture I've included (from left to right) the failed bullet (with moose hair still attached), the unloaded bullet, the spent case, the fully loaded cartridge, and a 308 winchster for a visual comparison.

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    Default weight retention

    The Barnes-X bullet is (or at least was) advertised to retain 9X% of its original weight, though it does change shape and mushroom out properly when it hits untanned leather. It seems to cause plenty of shock and game downing power while minimizing meat loss.

    Seems like your bullet did the opposite of those things.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    I once tried loading the barnes 225 grain triple shock with terrible results. I called Barnes regarding their "then new" triple shock. I was advised that i could continue on loading them with their existing #3 manual. The bullet was so long (because it's all copper) that it had to be seated far too deeply into the case. You have to use the 358 case capacity wisely because of it's short 308 sized case capacity. This bullet ate that capacity up too fast. The bullet was in fact so long......that it heavily compressed their PUBLISHED starting load! Every time you cycled the fully loaded cartridges through the rifle.......they would grow in length! The C.O.A.L would become so long that they were no longer reliable hunting rounds that would even cycle properly. I pulled 10 bullets before I finally caught on. when it was hard as heck to seat the bullets while crushing their published starting load of powder. In order to use barnes in the 358 you really can only use the 180 grainer, and to a certain extent....the 200 grainer and that IMO completely defeats the purpose of this wonderful cartridge. With the speer hot-cor 250 grainer you get wonderful expansion, great weight retention, and great range. this bullet if perfectly suited to the 2,400+ fps. of my 358 winchester full power hunting loads and is my top choice. My second choice would be a 250 grain Swift A-Frame which really isnt necessary at the velocity range of this cartridge. Barnes=Not for my 358. BUT....i have some 286 grainers that I can't wait to try in my 9.3x62 mauser carbine The heavier one work much better with long action cartridges.

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    That's just about exactly the performance I get with conventional cup-and-core bullet on heavy bone, with a little better performance from Speer Hot Core. The Speer Grand Slam 250 (the only GS available in .358), the Kodiak, and the heavy-jacket Hawks do quite a bit better at hanging onto the core. A-frames and Noslers nudge you into premiums without the great increase in length of all-copper bullets like Barnes.

    Out of curiosity, how long was the shot?

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    Default But

    I can show a picture of a 225gr Hornady Interlock shot from a 338 Win mag into a young Bull Moose that shows perfect expansion and core still intact... I like using non premium bullets, now hunting big bears I woudl use a premium bullet, the only premium bullet I use are Noslers... I don't mess with the others... If one is not happy with basic core-cup bullets then switch over to a Nosler Partition.

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    Default barnes

    Mainer interesting and good info! I dont have a 358 anymore but the last one I had (blr) i used nosler 250s exclusivley and loved them. In my first 358 (a savage 99) I used the barnes 225s I killed more game with that combo than any of the 3 358s Ive owned. I dont remember the load but I had no problems with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Now that I'm finally home......I found the bullet that I recovered from the neck of the young bull moose I shot back in 08(with my 358 Winchester). As I've stated before.....the bullet was doing fine until it hit the shoulder bone of the exit side of the young bull. Upon hiting that shoulder.....the bullet fragmented into pieces, the copper jacket seperated from the core......and the lead core tumbled up the front quarter and exited. The copper jacket was found against the hide in the neck (near that front quarter). The wound channel was so extensive that I lost at least 30-40% of one front quarter because of this violent bullet upset. I will never use this bullet on moose again. The word "interlock" to me......is false advertisement. My opinion of a true bonded core is the 250 grain speer hot-cor. When you pour moulten lead into a surprisingly thick copper jacket.....good things happen in the field. I depend on bullets that won't break the bank.......so I hope this field report of the interlock will help others choose affordable bullets for which to hunt big game in Alaska.
    In the picture I've included (from left to right) the failed bullet (with moose hair still attached), the unloaded bullet, the spent case, the fully loaded cartridge, and a 308 winchster for a visual comparison.

    I have to wonder about the economy involved in wasting 30% of a shoulder to save $25 on a box of bullets. I have shot a lot of critters with various X iterations for quite a few years and have been consistently amazed at the penetration, straight-line tracking, and very importantly, the fact you can eat right up to the hole.

    Stepping down in weight and gaining velocity is not a bad thing when the bullets still penetrate completely. In all the X bullets critters I have shot the bullets have consistently left the animal. I have never recovered a single bullet despite efforts to maximize cross section. I have used them on moose, caribou, deer (4 flavors), wild hogs, sheep, goats, brown, and black bears. While the 308 caliber was about half of what was used, the 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 35, and 375 have all worked for me.

    I grew up with the mistaken belief critters were to be shot behind the shoulder and angling between them. Hitting shoulders with cup and core bullets made huge messes, as you clearly demonstrate.

    The Interlock is still better than most C&C bullets and I would shoot Hornady seconds before Nosler firsts. Having the Juenke makes that a cheating statement though...

    I have a jar of recovered bullets, many Partitions, and I just shake my head at what utter foolishness they are. And the concept that some call them premiums... I do not ever want to recover bullets. I shot a small quartering-away, whitetail buck in a swamp in NE WA some years ago, nice and tight behind the shoulder. The NP was recovered in the near-side ham and the total bone hit included just three ribs blowing up on the way in. He was no more than 20 yards away with a 270.

    Anecdotal evidence means little in bullet performance and successes mean far less than failures. BUt based on much field use the Partition is no better than average cup-and-core bullets. Most any bullet will work under most conditions, but they are the only thing that touches the animal and the last place I would look to go cheap.
    YMMV
    art

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    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    I have to wonder about the economy involved in wasting 30% of a shoulder to save $25 on a box of bullets. I have shot a lot of critters with various X iterations for quite a few years and have been consistently amazed at the penetration, straight-line tracking, and very importantly, the fact you can eat right up to the hole.

    Stepping down in weight and gaining velocity is not a bad thing when the bullets still penetrate completely. In all the X bullets critters I have shot the bullets have consistently left the animal. I have never recovered a single bullet despite efforts to maximize cross section. I have used them on moose, caribou, deer (4 flavors), wild hogs, sheep, goats, brown, and black bears. While the 308 caliber was about half of what was used, the 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 35, and 375 have all worked for me.

    I grew up with the mistaken belief critters were to be shot behind the shoulder and angling between them. Hitting shoulders with cup and core bullets made huge messes, as you clearly demonstrate.

    The Interlock is still better than most C&C bullets and I would shoot Hornady seconds before Nosler firsts. Having the Juenke makes that a cheating statement though...

    I have a jar of recovered bullets, many Partitions, and I just shake my head at what utter foolishness they are. And the concept that some call them premiums... I do not ever want to recover bullets. I shot a small quartering-away, whitetail buck in a swamp in NE WA some years ago, nice and tight behind the shoulder. The NP was recovered in the near-side ham and the total bone hit included just three ribs blowing up on the way in. He was no more than 20 yards away with a 270.

    Anecdotal evidence means little in bullet performance and successes mean far less than failures. BUt based on much field use the Partition is no better than average cup-and-core bullets. Most any bullet will work under most conditions, but they are the only thing that touches the animal and the last place I would look to go cheap.
    YMMV
    art
    My experience and opinion agree 110% with this hap.
    It doesn't matter what you miss them with.

  9. #9

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    Interesting.

    I've been using Nosler Partitions for very nearly 50 years, accounting for many hundreds of animals, and not one has misbehaved as you describe. In fact, in all those years, I have recovered exactly two of them while all the rest were through and through penetrations. Different folks pointing different guns at different animals I guess. Just use what works for you and move on.

    Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with any of the bullet companies, and I don't sell the stuff either.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Interesting.

    I've been using Nosler Partitions for very nearly 50 years, accounting for many hundreds of animals, and not one has misbehaved as you describe. In fact, in all those years, I have recovered exactly two of them while all the rest were through and through penetrations. Different folks pointing different guns at different animals I guess. Just use what works for you and move on.

    Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with any of the bullet companies, and I don't sell the stuff either.
    But just how dik-dik is left after you shoot them with a 375?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I once tried loading the barnes 225 grain triple shock with terrible results. I called Barnes regarding their "then new" triple shock. I was advised that i could continue on loading them with their existing #3 manual. The bullet was so long (because it's all copper) that it had to be seated far too deeply into the case. You have to use the 358 case capacity wisely because of it's short 308 sized case capacity. This bullet ate that capacity up too fast. The bullet was in fact so long......that it heavily compressed their PUBLISHED starting load! Every time you cycled the fully loaded cartridges through the rifle.......they would grow in length! The C.O.A.L would become so long that they were no longer reliable hunting rounds that would even cycle properly. I pulled 10 bullets before I finally caught on. when it was hard as heck to seat the bullets while crushing their published starting load of powder. In order to use barnes in the 358 you really can only use the 180 grainer, and to a certain extent....the 200 grainer and that IMO completely defeats the purpose of this wonderful cartridge. With the speer hot-cor 250 grainer you get wonderful expansion, great weight retention, and great range. this bullet if perfectly suited to the 2,400+ fps. of my 358 winchester full power hunting loads and is my top choice. My second choice would be a 250 grain Swift A-Frame which really isnt necessary at the velocity range of this cartridge. Barnes=Not for my 358. BUT....i have some 286 grainers that I can't wait to try in my 9.3x62 mauser carbine The heavier one work much better with long action cartridges.
    hi mainer; as a fellow .35 cal shooter this caught my attention. i have read many of your entries and agree with most, but not this one. here's why. early on in bullet manufacture, bullets would fail to open (mushroom) allowing pass through. although many times lethal, there was not enough destruction of organ or blood vessal to cause the animal's failure. soft points expanded so fast that they would "blow up" on the exterier, causing a minimal wound. the dichotomy is to allow penetration AND bullet upset at velocities consistant with the caliber. it sounds like your bullet did both, as evidenced by the dead bull.

    we have ordered bullets to pass through (or not) and retain 98% or more of their original weight. something has to give....either wound chanel expansion or penetration. there is no free lunch.

    compromise is the solution, matching bullet design to the game sought, but then you knew that.


    good job on your moose, and damage aside, it should provide a winters worth of memories.

    happy trails.
    jh

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    hey Pine,

    Thanks for your insight and it's completely OK that you don't agree.....we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    The upset of the bullet was just too violent for me. It did kill the moose just fine, but I wouldnt consider it too much to ask for a bullet of equal price that holds together a little better and wont seperate from the core. The speer hot cor 250 grainer will be much better suited for me. I once cut a hot cor in half and observed that the jakcet was surprisingly thick! I'll load up that bullet for next season, and surely fill the freezer the same. Hopefully no wasted meat too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    That's just about exactly the performance I get with conventional cup-and-core bullet on heavy bone, with a little better performance from Speer Hot Core. The Speer Grand Slam 250 (the only GS available in .358), the Kodiak, and the heavy-jacket Hawks do quite a bit better at hanging onto the core. A-frames and Noslers nudge you into premiums without the great increase in length of all-copper bullets like Barnes.

    Out of curiosity, how long was the shot?
    178 yards. I would guess the impact velocity at that range would have been 2,600 fps.

  14. #14

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    Whoa! I bet you meant muzzle velocity.

    Starting that bullet at 2600fps as you might be able to do in a 358 Winnie, according to Hornady it will be doing about 2100fps at that range. I'd have expected it to hold together better with almost 200 yards between the muzzle and a young bull.

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    I see no one has heard of the "one bad apple" in the box issue? I have had some bullets over the years do what there supposed to do and every once in a while do something bizarre. Do you remember last years thread about Nosler Accubonds and whitetail deer. I had an Accubond come apart in 4 pieces and go head long through a deer. 40 inches + but in 4 pieces. I to this day believe it was a bad one in the box, because none of the other fired did that. That was 200 grains at 2600 fps out of a 30-06.

    The only bullet not to fragment on me over the years was a Winchester 180 black talon (failsafe) the first year they came out. I have gone to heavier bullets from Woodleigh and Hornady DGX for my 375 because of this, but I think I will still get a bad apple once and a while........

    Ron

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    Mainer I agree I dont like a bullet to come apart dead moose or not. I also agree with Brownbear, overall the nosler is hard to beat. I have recovered both the barnes and nosler though that isnt always bad. I use hornady quite a lot and have had no problems. IMHO bullet construction is far more important if you are using a lighter caliber for big game like moose. I have seen a lot of bad things with the 270 and moose when cheap bullets are used. I made the mistake of shooting a goat one time with my sons 270 and cheap cup/core bullets, the goat died but the bullet just made it thru one rib then exploded, shot was 200 yards, meat damage was extensive. Down here now noslers are about as expensive as barnes so both are to expensive for paper. That said I have a custom 35 whelen coming this spring and the load Im hoping to use exclusively is the nosler 250.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Now that I'm finally home......I found the bullet that I recovered from the neck of the young bull moose I shot back in 08(with my 358 Winchester). As I've stated before.....the bullet was doing fine until it hit the shoulder bone of the exit side of the young bull. Upon hiting that shoulder.....the bullet fragmented into pieces, the copper jacket seperated from the core......and the lead core tumbled up the front quarter and exited. The copper jacket was found against the hide in the neck (near that front quarter). The wound channel was so extensive that I lost at least 30-40% of one front quarter because of this violent bullet upset. I will never use this bullet on moose again. The word "interlock" to me......is false advertisement. My opinion of a true bonded core is the 250 grain speer hot-cor. When you pour moulten lead into a surprisingly thick copper jacket.....good things happen in the field. I depend on bullets that won't break the bank.......so I hope this field report of the interlock will help others choose affordable bullets for which to hunt big game in Alaska.
    In the picture I've included (from left to right) the failed bullet (with moose hair still attached), the unloaded bullet, the spent case, the fully loaded cartridge, and a 308 winchster for a visual comparison.
    Each shot is a different story. Iím thinking thatÖ.

    If you hadn't hit the shoulder in the same exact place, at the same exact angle, at the same exact velocity, and the same exact, whatever, the result could have been far different. I've heard some strange accounts, and wouldn't put too much emphasis on only one result.

    I think if everyone who hit bone with a Hornady Interlock, got the result you did, and had the reaction you did, the market for them would dry up. Any bullet can fail given the right set of circumstances.

    Sometimes a bullet at close range where the velocity is the highest, hits something solid, it will expand violently, and that can happen on occasion at longer ranges too.

    Sometimes a bullet hits a twig, and will start to expand before it even hits the animal.

    Maybe, the 200 grain is more of a Deer Bullet, and the 250 grain would be better for Moose.

    Speer HotCors aren't bonded-core like the current crop of bonded core bullets are they?

    For 358 Winchester velocities, a Rem. Corlokt, Hornady Interlock, Speer Hot Core, or Sierra bullet of the correct weight for the intended purpose, seems to be plenty for me. One may be better than another, in the experience of those who use them. I think that would be hard to nail down, when everything is taken into account.

    It's when you get up to Magnum velocities that I'd consider a premium bullet like a Nosler Partition to be necessary.

    Anyway, itís useful to hear about what might be considered, bullet failure, and try to learn why it happened like it did, and get the comments of knowledgeable people like Brownbear, but just to say, Hornady Interlocks are bad bullets, I dunno bout that.

    Your picture is way too dark to see anything. I hadda save it, and lighten it up some.

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
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    hap
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    Smitty
    "Sometimes a bullet hits a twig, and will start to expand before it even hits the animal."

    Several bullet manufacturers have proven pretty conclusively that bullet start opening extremely fast... Any bullet hitting anything on the way in leaves evidence in the form of an enlarged or "wierd" entrance hole. This example sounds like a bullet that did not hit anything but moose...

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    Smitty,
    You provided a good point. I do not consider this bullet to be a "bad" bullet at all. I just won't use it for moose again. I shot a large six point whitetail in maine with this same load with devastating performance. A little bit more weight, and from a Speer Hot Cor will be my next choice. I'm sure a 250 grain Hornady Interlock, Rem core-lokt, or sierra could work just as well. I may do a remote winter hunt this month and will be shooting the 250 grain hot cor. I missed hunting season this year (Iraq) and I'm craving moose meat. So.....the snow machine is almost ready for remote travel and I'll let you know how the hot-cor performs. Hopefully I have the oppurtunity to place the shot just behind the shoulder at a similiar angle as I did back in 08. You are also very right about the performance possibly being different had it been a different angle. I folowed the wound channel and the bullet was doing great.........until it hit that big ol shoulder bone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hap View Post
    Smitty
    "Sometimes a bullet hits a twig, and will start to expand before it even hits the animal."

    Several bullet manufacturers have proven pretty conclusively that bullet start opening extremely fast... Any bullet hitting anything on the way in leaves evidence in the form of an enlarged or "wierd" entrance hole. This example sounds like a bullet that did not hit anything but moose...
    I'll accept that, could be the case, at least most of the time.
    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
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    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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