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Thread: Why do people have to do this??

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    Default Why do people have to do this??

    I have a few questions. As a long time handloader i have noticed a few things that boggle the mind. Why do we always have to get every last FPS out of a given calibre? For example i have a buddy who bought a 22 Hornet. I love the hornet for what it is. He is constantly trying to get more out of it. If you are going to do that why not get a .223? People push thier 06 to the wall. Knowing that why not get a 300Win mag? They sacrifice all else for speed. There is a heck of a lot more important things i look for in a good load other than speed. ACCURACY is #1. Accuracy is #2-34625 as well. Mind you i like my loads to have some spunk to them as well but not at all costs. I just dont see why people are always trying to get more out of a calibre than what it is meant to have. Why not just buy bigger and be done with it. Just a few thoughts and questions.

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    We call them "velocity freaks". Hang out with someone who owns a bunch of Weatherbys and it'll give you a good example. It doesn't matter how "flat" your rifle shoots, it does matter that you know how far it drops at a given distance. I've seen folks reliably hit the target at 1000 yards with blackpowder cartridge rifles. Those aren't fast.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    I have a few questions. As a long time handloader i have noticed a few things that boggle the mind. Why do we always have to get every last FPS out of a given calibre? For example i have a buddy who bought a 22 Hornet. I love the hornet for what it is. He is constantly trying to get more out of it. If you are going to do that why not get a .223? People push thier 06 to the wall. Knowing that why not get a 300Win mag? They sacrifice all else for speed. There is a heck of a lot more important things i look for in a good load other than speed. ACCURACY is #1. Accuracy is #2-34625 as well. Mind you i like my loads to have some spunk to them as well but not at all costs. I just dont see why people are always trying to get more out of a calibre than what it is meant to have. Why not just buy bigger and be done with it. Just a few thoughts and questions.
    I think it's because so many people are competitive and you can measure velocity. I often wonder at the long guns compared to the short ones, like Guide guns for instance. The only measurement you hear most poeple talk about is the difference in velocity between the different barrel lengths, but not how accurate the long version is over the short version. Perhaps because it is far less measurable and is subjective to many other factors that are not so measurable from one marksman to another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    like Guide guns for instance. The only measurement you hear most poeple talk about is the difference in velocity between the different barrel lengths, but not how accurate the long version is over the short version.
    Hate to get off topic here but in the vast majority of firearms the shorter the barrel is the more accurate it will be (for the same sized contour). I'm sure they may be exceptions to this but in my own personal experiences shorter equals more accurate. But sometimes the accuracy comes at the expense of velocity. It's a happy medium between barrel length and accuracy we strive for.
    Tennessee

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    I would much rather measure group size than velocity for a person of a "competitive" nature, plus you can get all wacky and "score" your target with those printed on ring thingys. And maybe even do it standing, sitting on the ground and laying down. Hey, wait, we're starting to talk about MARKSMANSHIP here. I better stop.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Hate to get off topic here but in the vast majority of firearms the shorter the barrel is the more accurate it will be (for the same sized contour). I'm sure they may be exceptions to this but in my own personal experiences shorter equals more accurate. But sometimes the accuracy comes at the expense of velocity. It's a happy medium between barrel length and accuracy we strive for.

    I agree 100% with the above quote. My 375 Ruger in 20" is exceptionally accurate in that caliber.

    I purchased a Ruger Tactical 20" 308Win in 1:10 twist and it has surpassed my expectations with .25 MOA. I was so pleased with the short 20 inch barrels I bought a 20" 243 for my daughter and it too is exceptional.

    As an avid reloader I have found that the shorter barreled rifles have a wider sweet spot and really shine with a variety of loads. Although the 308 and 243 are slightly slower in velocity than their longer counterparts I would gladly toss speed aside for accuracy.

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    Some people just don't understand that a hundred fps give or take doesn't make much difference. Many also don't understand the extra wear and tear they are putting on there gun and brass. A miss at 3000fps is not nearly as good as a hit at 2700 is another concept that seems to escape many. Lots of good reasons for accuracy, not to many for a little extra speed.

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    I dont understand why you would want to buy a 22 Hornet, 7mm08 etc and then spend hours trying to make it faster than it was meant to be.

  9. #9

    Thumbs up ego is king!!!

    It's all about ego and image and that's everything. You know...I can run faster, jump higher. out shoot and out lift any man or beast. Any questions? Anyone can have an accurate gun, but speed is another matter. Only the macho knows! Wimps are people who can't take recoil so they opt for accuracy as an excuse to not load up. Barrel life be danged...3-5 hundred is sufficient. Toss it and get started on a new project. Who wants to shoot a rifle forever anyway except for a cheapskate. Just kidding folks...lighten up please.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Wink I want more...

    I agree that accuracy is first and foremost...no argument from me on that.

    However, once I dial-in the accuracy, I always start pushing the speed as far as I safely can yet maintain that accuracy. I want both. I admit that it makes little to no practical sense to squeeze out another hundred feet per second, and it may even compromise penetration on game and barrel life, but I can't help it...or maybe I can help it, but just don't want to. Either way, it's one of the things that I enjoy about handloading...tweeking a load to get all the accuracy and horsepower I can. I'll further admit that once I find that perfect combination for a given rifle and bullet I'm then bored with it. I load a bunch of that recipe and move to another project. This is all true.

    Now, I thought everyone did this...don't you? I can't be the only one who always pushes speed...I can't be, am I? That's a troubling thought. Maybe I've got to face the fact that I'm out of control with speed. Maybe I have a serious problem requiring help. Hmmm...just out of curiosity, is there a twelve-step program for handloaders who push speed?

    Doc

  11. #11

    Smile maybe...

    Maybe we do it for the same reason we drive to the "end of the road" to start hunting and drive past several shootable animals to get there. The same reason we take our boat 30 miles out to catch big halibut when we can fill the freezer at the "chicken" hole that is 15 miles out. The same reason we put a custom barrel on a moose rifle that has a paid for factory barrel capable of shooting "mintute of angle moose". The list is long. Still, I see nothing wrong with loading a caliber to it's safe potential. Just don't "shoot past" the best load for your rifle in an effort to get there. The performance of many of our old favorite calibers has been improved on in the last 25 years and thanks to new powders and "super bullets" it was done with out changing the case shape or capacity. The wonderful 30-06 is probably one of the best examples. It's ballistics have changed quite a bit in the last 100 years, as has the great 45-70. I usually don't worry about top velocity for any caliber I load for. I think getting acceptable accuracy out of a load is more important. Once you have the accuracy you need then learn the trajectory of that load and go forth making gut piles.

  12. #12

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    Mostly I see it done for bragging rights.

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    Default Where is the limit?

    I'll work my loads up to see how far I am off maximum but then load for accuracy - normally the most accurate load is not close to the maximum but it is nice to see how much leeway you have if you do hunt in a hot climate etc.

    I did have a .220 Swift that was a rare exception - it shot the best groups with loads that would occasionally blow a primer.

    I agree with just buying a bigger gun. For example there has been a lot of chit-chat on pushing a .45 Colt to exceed the .44 Mag. I just went out and got a .500 S&W - I can load it down and still greatly exceed both cartridges and not abuse either my .44 or .45.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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  14. #14

    Default with little experience

    i have learned that overall performance is a multi part equation that includes velocity. Also, however, bullet construction, target composition and intended range (among others) all play a role in determining appropriate cartridge & load. Performance (terminal) will suffer when any one of these characteristics are given an inordinate amount of weight in the equation.
    I just assume that when someone does over emphasize any one characteristic they are misinformed or are not particularly interested in optimizing terminal performance (for hunting?).

    I think that may be why we hear so many stories about bullets not performing well (blowing up/insufficient penetration). They were probably being used at too great a velocity.

    I have ruined too much meat when using fast cartridges/loads on game animals (bloodshot). I have come to appreciate a slower bullet that does not destroy meat but still penetrates very well.

    For simply punching holes in papaer, accuracy beats all. I am not an expert by any stretch so an inch or so works great for me. For whatever that is worth.

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    Funny topic. I must live a sheltered life as I wasn't even aware that there was a group of speed freaks out there. For me, speed means nothing and I don't even own a crony or have much interest in one. I open the book, look at the published safe load range and usually pick a point that is about the 1/3 point between the low and high charges. Then I'll do the typical test loading over small variations from that point to find the measurable point where the holes on the paper are closest together. Ding. Load is done.
    Winter is Coming...

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    At some point most of us go through different reloading phases. In the beginning it was all about cost for me. Then it was about speed and standard deviation. The stage I am into now would best be described as "practical" or maybe a better term would be lazy

    If a new load shoots close to 1 inch for 3 shots it is called good and time to move onto another project (exceptions for this are rifles obtained purely for their accuracy potential). Even sold my chronograph which was a mistake as they are invaluable when trying to find better regulating loads for double rifles, but that is for another topic.

    If speed is your quest then enjoy the experimenting. The more we shoot the more (hopefully) we learn.
    Tennessee

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    Default It is funny, the longer

    you reload and the more folks you talk to you get a good cross section of what blows peoples hair back. People have been trying to replace accuracy with horespower for years. I'm sure you have all heard at one time or another "man, if I even hit is the ***** with this baby, it will go down". A good hit in the vitals is what counts. I have been loading for my 22-250 for over 30 years. I found a load that basically shoots little on hole groups years ago so that pretty much ended my experimenting for that one. I had another friend who reloaded for "his" buddies. He knew very little about reloading IMO, and he would always just find the max load in the manuals and then just back off of that just a little bit, and his friends would shoot this stuff, I couldn't believe it, but hey what can you do? When I usually start loading for a certin gun, I usually start in the middle and work up towards max. I keep all of my targets and keep them in binders with notes on each load. The ones that have potential I start to tweek by 1/10 grain increments. The others get canned. Have any of you ever reloaded for friends? I never have and never will.

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    Nope. I never even give away reloads. You load it... you shoot it.
    Winter is Coming...

    Go GeocacheAlaska!

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    I like your perspective Randy, i.e., reloaders go through stages. I've been reloading for about ten years, and it sounds that striving for accuracy AND pushing speed may be an indicator I am still in my adolescent stage of this developmental process.

    I know that Brownbear has been at this reloading thing longer than most of us, so his comment about speed and ego is interesting...I can almost almost hear the words, "You young wipper-snappers and your focus on speed..." (Now Brownbear, you know that I respect the daylights out of you and have for many years together on this forum. I'm just having fun...it's winter, it's dark and there's not much snow up at Eureka...yet).

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    Nope. I never even give away reloads. You load it... you shoot it.
    I am VERY selective. I only reload for my son and daughter, and a little bit for one life-long friend and another 20+ year friend.

    I have turned away many nice people and friends. In a culture that sues each other over pretty much anything and everything, I won't extend my generosity beyond what I have noted. I've even been PM'ed by people on this site asking me to reload for them.

    Doc

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