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Thread: Marlin Guide Gun v. Shotgun

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    Default Marlin Guide Gun v. Shotgun

    Besides person preference are the legitimate pro's (or cons) for a Guide Gun instead of a shotgun in a bear defensive situation?
    Thanks,
    Bill

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    SidexSide, the GG will of course have much more MV and energy. But if you shoot like ****, stick with 00 buck.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

  3. #3

    Default Well,

    No disrespect meant, but if I were using a shotgun at anything but a few feet distance, I'd always use a good slug, like the Brenneke 3" magnum 12 gauge, which is very potent. Having my choice, I'd use the 45-70 Guide Gun with 400-405 grain hard cast wide flat nose bullets or a good tough flat nose jacketed soft point.

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    Depends on what you prefer.Federal 1 1/4oz slugs and some of the premium will work fine 25 yards on in.If I could have only one gun it would be hard to choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    No disrespect meant, but if I were using a shotgun at anything but a few feet distance,
    Distance is always a variable and can never be prepared for. Alternate shells.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    I would like to add this caveat to all I am about to say. I have not experienced a true DLP scenario. I've had inquisitive bears approach me or my camping/hunting/fishing party that received a warning shot to scare off the bear, but I've not had to experience a bear attack and I pray I never do. I am stating this to show my experience is limited so take my opinion for what it is, my opinion.

    I think that in a DLP scenario the factors to consider indicate that a shotgun is more formidable than a Guide Gun (45/70 or its ilk). I much prefer the GG to hunt in AK, but as a DLP weapon I prefer the handling characteristics of the shotgun. An attack situation is going to be close; it is going to be measured inside 100 feet and probably less than 50 feet. If the bear is further away than 30-35 yards it is probably not a DLP situation. A firearm that can be used quickly, effectively and a bit instinctively has a distinct advantage IMO. A 12 gauge shotgun with slugs has ample power & penetration for close range use. A pump or self-loading shotgun is faster to fire more accurately than a GG at DLP distances. Appropriately equipped they weigh about the same, but the shotgun will be more instinctive and quicker handling.

    I can think of no advantage of using buckshot. Buckshot is limited in penetration and while effective if it hits in a single mass of pellets, its effects otherwise will probably prove ineffective on an charging animal. Load the shotgun with quality slugs and you will have the most formidable weapon available for DLP situations in the very rare event you need it.

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    I assume we are talking bear defense and for that buckshot simply does not have enough penetration to stop a brown unless the muzzle is just about agents his head so is a very poor choice.

    For terminal performance a shotgun (with good slugs) is going to be better inside 20 yards or so, not by a bunch but some. For past 20 yards or so the GG is going to start to overtake the slug in terminal performance.

    Both are very effective hunting weapons but for hunting different types of game. Which wins this category would depend on the user and what type of other uses they may have for the gun. Someone that’s into hunting things like sea ducks may lean toward a shotgun and a dedicated black tail deer hunter may have more use for a GG.

    Length, size and general handiness in the bush gives an edge to the GG in my mind. Some purpose built shotguns handle just as handy as a GG at the expense of versatility for hunting, but are great for home defense.

    Accuracy of course goes to the GG but inside the bear defense range it’s not enough to amount to anything.

    I would pick the GG myself because it’s a better fit for me. For others a shotgun may be a better choice and they are not a bad choice at all for bear defense when loaded with good slugs. If I was to have a dedicated bear defense only gun it would be a Mossy 500 type 12gage pump with a short slug barrel on it.
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    I prefer a pump shotgun. I own a .45-70 lever gun and I simply can't shoot it as fast and accurately up close as I can my 870 20" barrel. Slugs only. After testing 00buck on a black bear I can't see it used for real use on bears. Barely made it inside the rib cage on a broadside shot.

    For survival use I also prefer the 12 guage. A dozen rounds of bigger bird shot makes squirrels, birds and rabbits much easier to get.
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  9. #9

    Smile I choose...

    The Marlin 45-70 with some heavy jacketed 405 grain bullets at 1900 fps mv would be my first choice. But, I think the 12 ga. with the 600 grain Breeneke Black Magic slug should get the job done.

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    I never had to shoot a bar. I was always able to scare them off, (Only a couple) and actually they both took their own sweet time. They didn't act a bit scared.

    I'd go with the Guide Gun, and cast boolits, cause I never could shoot a Shootgun worth a hoot. AND, I've got no faith in shootgun slugs, or otherwise, for killing bars.

    Besides, if they're headed for me, and as close as 25 or 30 yards away, I don't wanna hafta wait til they're closer. I just don't.

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    Default For whats its worth...

    I have both and would choose the GG for a couple reasons.
    1. As Smitty states a little more distance would be a VERY good thing.
    2. I grew up with an 870 in my hands and shot tons of feathered friends and many coyotes and fox with # 4 buck! My fear would be in life threatening situation would I shuck the gun enough to chamber the second round? I found over the years of using auto's and O/U shotguns I have gotten VERY rusty at pump guns. I would definetly have trouble making a 3inch slug function reliably....
    So, if I had to take a shotgun it would likely be an auto with 2 3/4in slugs that I am confident in making the gun cycle. I have taken dozens of deer with an 1187 and never had one feeding problem.

  12. #12

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    Shotgun w/slugs for a true DLP sitation without a doubt.

    I actually feel sorry for those that think alternating buck/slug will get the job done...please people, test buckshot on some solid objects and you`ll understand. If Treadwell had used buckshot he would still be pushing daisies. A pissed-off bear will not stop because of a peppering.

    Remington 870 Express
    3-shot group @ 50yrds...2.25"-standing w/18.8" vented barrel/non-rifled.
    2-shot group @ 50yrds...1.75"-standing w/18.8" vented barrel/non-rifled.

    Both are 1st generation Brenneke 600g/1-3/8 oz/3".
    Stopped there...gets expensive (can`t replace them anymore) and kinda hurts.

    Hardly an inaccurate round at reasonable ranges. I`m very comfortable using it out to 150 yrds.

    The Brenneke Black Magic 3" will shoot exactly flat @ 88 yrds...not even close to a DLP situation. Shoot one through a couple car doors and you`ll find it doesn`t even waver in it`s trajectory...I bet my life on it ALOT.

    There`s my .02

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    I will take the GG every time. I have shot deer with a slug and not had them penetrate all the way through. A GG with a good bullet and you are good to go

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I prefer a pump shotgun. I own a .45-70 lever gun and I simply can't shoot it as fast and accurately up close as I can my 870 20" barrel. Slugs only. After testing 00buck on a black bear I can't see it used for real use on bears. Barely made it inside the rib cage on a broadside shot.

    For survival use I also prefer the 12 guage. A dozen rounds of bigger bird shot makes squirrels, birds and rabbits much easier to get.
    What about getting your guide gun converted to a WWG. 457 so it can shoot 457, 45/70, and .410 shotgun?? Seems like that would be a pretty good combo for shooting birds and rabbits if needed for a survival situation?? I have no experience with the 457 just curious on thoughts on this.

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    I have shot both guns in one of those "bear safety" classes. I had never ever handled a lever gun in my life before that class. I have grown up with 870s.

    In my first bear safety class in 1997 I managed to go from hands off with the gun sitting on the bench in a chamber empty condition to placing two slugs into the nose of a bear image target in 1.5 seconds. This was a brand new 870 rustpress with a iron sighted smooth barrel that had no smithing other than a cleaning when removed from its box two days before. The only person faster in the glass was the instructor with is Scattergun Techonology competition weapon. The geology crew with their pistol grip shotguns were lucky to even hit the target with one of their two rounds. Most of them got off their second shot around 3 seconds.

    Many years later in 2005 I was in another required bear safety class and using that companies WWG slicked up 45-70 GG as well as their WWG slicked up 870 riot gun. Both guns had smooth triggers and actions as well as ghost ring sights. I have not used any ring sights outside of 4H target rifle as a kid.

    Shooting both the GG and the 870 riot gun was like shooting a semi auto weapon. Even though I have never shot a lever gun before it was an organic process. The WWG slicked up 870 was butter smooth. There was no timer in this class, but this instructer used a bear target on a cart pulled on a rope attached to a car to represent a charging situation. Both guns might as well have been machine guns in terms of their speed between shots. The ghost rings allowed for the fastest sight accusition I have ever experienced. I think an ACOG would be the only sight faster than ghost rings.

    With the 870 I had three rounds into the bear head of the target before it moved 15 feet at 15mph. It was the same with the GG. During the charge target I did learn that I needed to practice my tactical reloading with the GG. The tactical reload with 870 was easy from all the duck hunting and swatting cripples. The funny thing is that the GG and the 870 have similar requirements for tactical reloads - open receiver on the righ side - they just require different hands to make it happen.

    If I had the coin I would carry a WWG 475 co pilot with all the fancy stuff.

    If I just wanted a bear gun it would be a SS GG with a little WWG slicking up with parts and the ghost ring sites.

    If I wanted a SG it would be a well broken in 870 (Actions by Father Time), with a ghost ring site mounted on the back of the receiver with a white bead post up front. These are either Wilson Compat or Scattergun Tech sights. There are rear ring sights that go on a p-rail on top of the receiver. These are too far from the eye and slow down sight alignment. The rear sight that mounts to the curved part of the back of the receiver is better/faster since it is closer to the eye.

    And then if you have never done so, get a hold of Steven Nelson or his retired cop buddy whats his name (Doug? Bruce?) and take one of their BLM style bear safety classes. The most fun I have ever been mandated to have.

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    Default buck

    AKK2AZ I could i suppose ask you if you have ever used buckshot on a grizzly in a life or death situation?? I have and I dont care what you paper tests of any kind tell you, you are wrong. I have read it so many times on here Im sick of it, its bad/false info. I was using a winchester defender 12 gauge with buckshot (went in after a gutshot grizzly, it was wounded by a 45/70) she came from maybe 15 yards, not sure as she came very fast. I do know this one shot with the buckshot at pointblank range almost took her head off. As a matter of fact it was so bad the taxidermist decided he couldnt salvage the hide. I shoot more than most and have been guiding for many years and I doubt with anything else I could have stopped that bear it happened just to fast. I will give you this Buck is only good at very close range but as we all know bears are not dangerous until they are very close!

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    I have shot a bear, albeit a black bear, with 00 buck and it wasn't impressive. I'm sure it's the distance thing as the black bear wasn't at point blank distance. I shot a slug completely through a caribou..side to side..at 20 yards and it worked fine.

    What about getting your guide gun converted to a WWG. 457 so it can shoot 457, 45/70, and .410 shotgun?? Seems like that would be a pretty good combo for shooting birds and rabbits if needed for a survival situation?? I have no experience with the 457 just curious on thoughts on this.
    Not worth the money to me. I like my 45.70 well enough, but I prefer my bolt guns to hunt with and my shotgun when I bother to carry anything for bear protection. I carry the 12 ga. with me on the rare occations I am flying with friends in their planes. I've never had much use for a .410
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I have shot a bear, albeit a black bear, with 00 buck and it wasn't impressive. I'm sure it's the distance thing as the black bear wasn't at point blank distance. I shot a slug completely through a caribou..side to side..at 20 yards and it worked fine.



    Not worth the money to me. I like my 45.70 well enough, but I prefer my bolt guns to hunt with and my shotgun when I bother to carry anything for bear protection. I carry the 12 ga. with me on the rare occations I am flying with friends in their planes. I've never had much use for a .410
    I hear ya Doug. I was just curious and looking for opinions. For me when backpacking all summer I carry my 45/70 GG due to a lot of my hiking is in unit 13 where if I see a lone grizz I may choose to take for predator control. Its nice to have the option to be able to hunt in addtion for to bear protection all in a small lil' package. In fact I'm thinking of going co-pilot with a guide gun so when I'm running whitewater in my packraft it'd be nice to be able to stuff it INSIDE my pack. I've been a fan of the lil' .410 for small game myself so I was just looking at adding that option to the repertoire of the guide gun. I really don't feel like carrying two rilfes while backpacking.

    As mentioned it really just depends on what your purposes are for. I prefer the option to hunt with my bear protection if I choose. Others are just looking to for soley bear protection and in that case the shotgun may be a cheaper and better solution.

  19. #19

    Default Personally I would go with the CG

    On the 457 idea, has anyone here patterned a 410 with birdshot out of a rifled barrel? Sounds like a good idea if it has something close to a pattern.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    AKK2AZ I could i suppose ask you if you have ever used buckshot on a grizzly in a life or death situation?? I have and I dont care what you paper tests of any kind tell you, you are wrong. I have read it so many times on here Im sick of it, its bad/false info. I was using a winchester defender 12 gauge with buckshot (went in after a gutshot grizzly, it was wounded by a 45/70) she came from maybe 15 yards, not sure as she came very fast. I do know this one shot with the buckshot at pointblank range almost took her head off. As a matter of fact it was so bad the taxidermist decided he couldnt salvage the hide. I shoot more than most and have been guiding for many years and I doubt with anything else I could have stopped that bear it happened just to fast. I will give you this Buck is only good at very close range but as we all know bears are not dangerous until they are very close!
    No, I haven`t used buckshot on a bear and won`t. I`ve tested several versions on heavy substrate and have had no success in getting even 15% of the penetration of a slug. At close range...15' or so it may be effective but I`ll take a sure thing when my family is waiting for me. Granted you may have had good success (very happy to hear it worked for you) but it is not the norm. Keep in mind I`m not considering 500lb. Grizzlies but 1000 pound coastals (most common in AK). If you are comfortable with buck, run it, I`m not. Hell, I`ve seen black bears take a .45-70 in the bread-basket and disappear...so I run the heaviest thing I`m proficient with. Have also had a DLP situation in the tent with a .445 mag...shot through the lower jaw/neck and it ran around in circles pissed until the appropriate round (slug) was used. There are always variables however I choose to take as many of those as possible out of the equation.

    I don`t test killing force of ammo on paper, as stated people need to use solid objects to be objective about buck`s penetration capability. A quick test on a 15" stump @ 20' will show the buck only making it a couple inches, while the slug travels right on through. No brainer for me.

    BTW...not knocking the power of .45-70 or it`s versatility...very good gun/caliber for AK.

    To the OP, sorry the thread ran off topic.

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