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Thread: Talk about our Sheep Hunting Problems

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    Default Talk about our Sheep Hunting Problems

    Was reading a thread on another forum about Dall Sheep guides and discovered this posters comments where a guides clients went 25 for 27 on Legal Rams in the Wrangells in one year and here we are discussing why sheep hunting is constantly on the brink of more restrictions. I cant even name 27 Alaskan hunters that I know that have killed 27 Rams. This is the kind of stuff that regular joe blow Alaskan resident hunters dont know about. Read the 8th post on this link and some of you might even know of this guide service, what happens when this guide doesn't have anymore rams in his area, does he just move on to the next unit?

    <link removed by webmaster: the point can be made without talking about a specific guide>
    Last edited by Webmaster; 12-26-2006 at 12:53. Reason: Negative talk about an individual

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    geez, i take two sheep hunters a year and i want to get it down to one sheep hunt a year. can you imagine being the guide next to him or the resident walking up that valley after he's been in there. i'm sure some of its true with the rams filtering/wandering in and out of the park but 100 sheep every four years and thats just his outfitt...he ain't the only one over there. and that don't count resident take either, illegal harvest, predator kill, winter die off.
    no wonder guides get a bad name, sounds like a money run, sounds like a good one though...lol

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    I know your a guide and I can respect guiding for what it is and I know several guides that at least from what they tell me in genuine conversations they are going about things sensibly, but man after reading that thread I about chitt, I cant even imagine somebody going about business that way and seriously thinking that he's managing his area for future resources. But you do the math on 27 hunters at what, lets be generous and say $10K a piece, sounds a lot more like getting rich than guiding with some sense. Even if he has fifty miles of guiding area. The #'s in the long run is awful high!

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    Does anyone have the real numbers for sheep taken in that area for that year? I know here the MOE publishes a report on harvest for each year. G/O's in B.C. have an exclusive (within the g/o circle) area they can hunt, and are under quota for some species, such as sheep. Residents can hunt these areas in either a GOS or with a LEH (draw).
    It's the journey, not the destination.

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    Unhappy sheep guide

    Wow, amazing success rate for that guide. Pretty good illustration of what a guy with a plane, horses and a lot of resources can do to a sheep population. I hope this isn’t one of those guides who people refer to who unofficially restricts access to “his” areas. Considering the entire Unit 12 (North Wrangells, Nutzotin and Mentasta) the harvest averages about 125 rams. So if he branches out into all of those ranges he is accounting for 1/5 of the harvest. He may have the majority of the harvest if he sticks to the Northern Wrangells. For perspective he equals the harvest goals for the entire Kenai Peninsula! I hunted with a guy once in the Southern Wrangells who greatly overharvested the two small drainages in his area. This was evident as all of his rams were just full curl and many hunters went home disgruntled and without a sheep. At least this guide is getting all of his clients sheep. When people are throwing out the need to increase drawing areas for sheep and reduce our opportunity to hunt sheep, in my opinion examples like this provide clear pictures of a more desirable way to protect our hunting opportunies. (restrict access, guide quotas or more restricted guide areas, etc.) He clearly takes a disproportionate share of the resource.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    this is just another prime example of loose regs for some aspects of the guide industry. They are crackin' down on alot of other areas that no one really cares much about, like specie specific license but you have guys like this just basily taking as much as he possibly can, sort of make hay while the sun shines mentality.
    Yes i'm a guide, but i can't condone that kinda of operation. theres only so much resource out there, but on the other hand, maybe he's right maybe that area can sustain those kinds of harvests, not sure how long he's been taking that many sheep outa there. I'm guessing where he's at, not man yresidents are going, sounds like they should be. but unless you've got 250 grand to help fund your hunts you might not be able to.
    without knowing all the facts about this set up and harvest, its hard to stay netural but i need to. he probably knows his area and his sheep better than we do. hard not to judge on this one cause the numbers sound crazy. maybe he's been doing this for 20 years and we just heard about it...then what?
    Maybe he's knockin down that many sheep cause he has the money to make it happen, which is his choice. if we thru money like he does at a hunt we'd get sheep too.
    I guess theres alot of factors falling in here, we are looking at it from personal sheep hunting experience....not his sheep hunting experience. tough to do.
    so without saying i like what he does, cause i'm not a fan of that kinda money trough, its still his operation and i dont know much about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    I hope this isn’t one of those guides who people refer to who unofficially restricts access to “his” areas.
    Yep, that be the one!

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    Default Well

    I'm not a guide, and I don't know but a couple, however, if the law was changed so that the Actual Registed Master Guide for that area etc had to be IN THE FIELD with the PAYING HUNTER at all times....then the problem really takes care of itself. No way any guide scores even half that many sheep in a season with Hunt's averageing 7-10 days. Make Guiding what it should be, GUIDING, not "Meet and Greet" to find our who your packer/assistant guide will be before you fork over 10K or more and never see the guy again....ya know.

    Thoughts?

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    Red face

    Great idea!!!!!

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    cutter, i hear ya on that one, i don't know how many guides actually guide, most of the work is done by hired guides. even if the contracting guide didn't have to be with the client the entire trip, maybe part of two serpate days would even cut them back alot.
    i belive thats why they call it guide/outfitter license. i do all my own guiding and will keep it that way as long as i can, i have a buddy whos a guide who comes in and helps me with hunts but i'm always guiding with him. someday something with change, but outfits ike the one mentioned above aren't the ones who'll get hurt. they get stronger, no way is anyone gonna crack down on big oufits that can actually afford a lawyer when they can just cut off the new/little outfitts. much easier, less fight and fewer folks notice. thats how business works...look at walmart.

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    What really discourages me is that these are exactly the kind of guys that "unofficially restrict access" to hunting areas for many of us and as a regular Alaskan resident hunter we have no power in ever bringing this kind of stuff to a hault, meaning that by the time you can get somebody to take you into these particular areas to hunt they will have been picked clean of legal rams and the guide will just move on to another area that you will be "unofficially restricted from accessing"! This kind of stuff makes me so darn mad I just about cant discuss it without getting fired up. And then organizations like some that are out there want to keep us from riding wheelers into certain areas to hunt because we'll diminish the resource, man somebody better wake up and smell the coffee and soon!

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    AKcub, i'm with you all the way. some priorities seem wayyy off target. anytime someone is guiding in a area, regardless of where it is, other businesses, ie air taxi's or local transportation, shouldnt create a bubble that is off limits or inaccesable to other hunters. if someone wants to pay the dough and work as hard as teh guide in there, let them. their state too. rubbs me all wrong when somene who has a guide license gets everyone scratching their backs and making sure they get taken care of. keep those guides honest by throwing a few resident hunters in there to make those guides keep working for the privalidge to hunt there.

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    I recall some talk in the past about assigning specific areas to guides, not just GMU's. It seems to me that if a guide's harvest was limited to a specific drainage or section of range, then he would have a vested interest in selectively harvesting only older rams in order to maintain his areas population from year to year.

    If what I read in earlier posts is true and guides can deplete a local population and then move their operations to where the sheep then where's the incentive to be good stewards?

    I would also like to see a moratorium on non-resident guides--I'm ok with assistants and packers bieng non-res but not the registered guides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik in AK View Post
    It seems to me that if a guide's harvest was limited to a specific drainage or section of range, then he would have a vested interest in selectively harvesting only older rams in order to maintain his areas population from year to year.
    That is how it works here, and if the g/o takes rams under 8 years of age, their quota is reduced. A g/o with a blank check has the potential to be the fox guarding the hen house, however, if he wants to be there for the long haul, he will not over harvest. Would not the game dept step in if the sheep population was being hurt?
    It's the journey, not the destination.

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    Default Sheep Problems

    As discussed here in recent past, your F&G has limited resources and can only do so much. Where is the Alaskan Chapter of FNAWS on some of these issues? What is going to be the simple fix for this is so introduce a "draw system" for everyone. Guides can't plan on who they will have and how many and you the resident can't plan until the results come out. The consensus seems to be that there is increasing pressure on the sheep and the cheapest way for F&G to resolve it is to impose a draw. If they do this in certain areas they will put increased pressure in non-draw areas. They might as well do it all at once to even out the pressure. No one wants to hear this but welcome to the TMA and Chugach Park statewide!

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    Default no mystery here....

    Quote Originally Posted by 375JDJ View Post
    Yep, that be the one!
    This guide has restricted resident influx through his dealings with the local air transporter for many years.

    It ought to be illegal and its disgusting.

    I have a mind to go sheep hunting in the heart of Chisana, Beaver Lake and the Bonanza area just to spite him...
    Sorry for the rant, but this guy thinks he owns this area. Its open to all--resident and nonresident alike.

    I've posted on this before and didnt think anyone cared until this thread.



    Frank

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    I've posted this before as well, but if there are safe areas to land, once I get quite a bit of experience in the Super Cub I'll be more than happy to fly in there with one of you fellas. Or if there's a lake I could potentially do it sooner in a 172 on floats. Anyone know the area well enough to offer insight?

    -Brian

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    Has anyone per chance taken a look at <the guide>'s base camp on his web page?

    <link removed by webmaster>

    I have read a number of accounts of hunts with <this guide> and in all the accounts I have read about over the years, the hunter was always been guided by one of the many "assistant guides" which would prob help explain how this particular outfit can account for so many harvested animals almost exclusively by nonresidents.
    Last edited by Webmaster; 12-26-2006 at 13:09. Reason: Negative talk about an individual or business

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    Yeah and do you see the pics of Bob Folkrod (Bass Pro Shops/ Redhead hunting team), and Raulph Cianchurillo (from The Choice a hunting show on the Outdoor Network). Thats why he's got her pinned down and yes Frank I agree its freakin Disgusting!

  20. #20

    Default Rant...

    I haven't hunted sheep yet, but this makes me sick, so I can't imagine what you guys who do hunt sheep every year must feel about it....

    Lived in Alaska until I was 12, and have been up 4 of the past 5 years to hunt moose, caribou, and bear. Out of four guided hunts during that time, I have had exactly ONE guide who was an Alaska resident - the others were assistants and were from Colorado, Virginia, and Montana.

    I gotta tell ya, it's a great feeling to spend 10 Large on a guided hunt and fly to Alaska only to find out you're funding another guys vacation....sure would be nice to have fewer nonres guides (as many of you feel about nonres hunters as well, I realize) and require the master guide to be more involved in the hunts, but not sure there's any way to enforce that.

    Rant off. Have a terrific holiday everyone,

    Michael

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