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Thread: Finnish M-39 Mosin Nagant

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Finnish M-39 Mosin Nagant

    Saw two at the Ammo Can Gun shop at Arctic & Dimond next to Village Inn...

    SAKO 1944 in super nice (looks unissued) condition
    VALMET 1941 issue and normal character wear --- still nice!

    Lots of 7.62x54 surplus

    Lots of 7.62x51 surplus

    & .303 Brit '40s headstamped

    Bunny boots ony 50 bucks!

  2. #2
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    Default M-39's

    Brian,

    We're gald you're back, thanks for your input.

    I would like to have a nice Finnish made M-39, what is one of those worth?

    I have found some components, bullets and brass at a really good price and I like to load so if they're not a lot of money that would be a good winter project. (like I need another). Would you say the SAKO made rifles are a strong platform for load development? I realize the design/steel limitations of the rifle I just thought a Finnish rifle would be more interesting than a US made gun.

    I was in ANC over the week end but not long enough and didn't get to hit many shops. I did get by Great Northern guns but couldn't find a place to park!! Wow! Must have been the Holiday bash.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default

    Really, I always wanted a Noisy Maggot. Never could find a Finnish M-39 in the state though.

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    Glad to hear they've brought some into the gun shops. I've owned half a dozen M-39's. They're generally good rifles, but a bit on the heavy side compared with other Mosins.

    Steel strength is excellent. The receivers are massive and the barrels top of the line. If you look you'll see little pips on the receiver where the Finns strength tested them. Any receiver that didn't pass the test was not used on the rifle.

    I've worked up a lot of handloads with these. My favorite uses .312" Woodleigh 215 grainers. I can get them cooking to about 2,400 fps.

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    Default Finnish 7.62x53R

    Hey you guys should know that most if not all the Finnish Mosin Nagants were rebarreled from the Russian 7.62x54R (.311 or .312) to 7.62x53R, which uses .308 bullets. From your discussion, I can't tell that you already knew this fact or not.

    Sure, .311 bullets can be swaged through a .308 barrel, but with loss of accuracy, and increased pressure.

    KB

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    Yes and no. The 7.62x54R and 7.62x53R are the same cartridge. The only Finns with a .308" bore are some rare pre-war models such as the M-28/30. The M-39's that everyone is selling now are all "D" chamber for the heavier bullets with a .310" bore and are specifically designed to shoot both Finnish and Russian ammo with no problems. Older Finns with a "D" stamp have a chamber adapted for Russian surplus, though they might have a tighter bore diameter.

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    Talking 7.62x53R

    About two years ago I did a lot of research on the Finnish 7.62x53R, and I read several good sources. I wasn't reading for what was stamped on what barrel, etc, but as I remember - the Finn military over several years would buy the surplus arsenals of the Russian rifles, then before issue to the Finn personnel, they would rework them and rebarrel to .308. I'm not an expert on this subject, but frankly I was pretty convinced at the time that the above is true. I'm still of that opinion.

    So, I reached the conclusion that the Finnish rifles are commonly .308, rather than rarely so, as you say.

    The 7.62x54R and the 7.62x53R are absolutely not the same cartridge, but the differences are very small.

    The 7.62x53R is the Finnish version, which only uses .308 bullets. Lapua factory ammo in 7.62x53R uses 185 gr Mega bullets which are .308 diameter. I find it difficult to believe Lapua would do this if it was not specifically for their national cartridge. All the Russian 7.62x54R factory ammo is not .308, including the surplus stuff, Norma, Sellier & Beloit and Winchester ammo. This info is fact.
    The Lapua brass is slightly shorter than 7.62x54R brass.

    The Lapua and Vihtavuori loading manuals explain it all very well. They show data for the Finn 7.62x53R, using .308 bullets.

    The loading dies from RCBS and Redding come with two expander balls, one is to size the neck for either .311 or .312 bullets (I can't remember which) and the other is to size the neck for .308 bullets. You can load either the Russian round or the Finish round with the same dies. They are very close, but absolutely not the same.

    Just trying to do a favor for those who are interested, and those who will listen. I like to be precise and knowledgable about my shooting activities, and really prefer to shoot .308 bullets through a barrel made for them, rather than the .311 bullets, through .308 grove. Maybe it's just me.

    The main thing is to inform yourself. There is reliable info available, but often these forums ain't the best source. I believe very little of what I read on these forums, unless I already know it to be true or I can confirm it elsewhere, because there are a lot of so called experts spouting misinformation.

    KB
    Last edited by Kabluewy; 03-28-2007 at 11:10.

  8. #8

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    I have a Finnish 1891-30 and was under the impression that all of that era were Russian made, and in fact, battlefield pickups re-arsenalled by the Finns. This rifle has the Original Russian and also the Finnish markings. I have never shot it as it looks so cobbled together but its a neat bit of history. It has no calibre marking and I just assumed it to be 7.62X54 Russian. Weren't the m39 and m1944 ww2 era rifles? Russia and Finland were enemies so it seems odd that they would be trading.

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    Default 7.62x53R Finnish

    There are a lot of "impressions", "seems so", and "assumptions" relating to almost any topic, but seems especially so relating to guns. That's ok and maybe fun when you're dealing in tomatoes, but not so good regarding guns. I hope that in reading my post, you are able to clearly distinguish when I'm speculating, and when I'm stating a fact as I know it.

    Cobbeled together or not, because they were used on the battlefield for so many years, the rifles Russian or Finnish, probably have killed more people in history than any other firearm, except maybe the Mauser, or the newer Russian rifle which shoots the 7.62x39 ammo. I can't think of the name of the newer rifle, but you see it all the time in the news about Iraq.

    As far as I know they were all Russian made, but that doesn't mean they are all 7.62x54R. As far as I know they will safely shoot the x54R, but the x53R is the correct cartridge for the Finn rifles. Enemies or not, the Finns didn't make the rifles, but refurbished them for their arsenal. Maybe some were captured, stolen or whatever a resourceful Finn might think up, but instead most were bought by the Finnish Govt., by the thousands as surplus.

    There could be some that became the possession of a Finn Civilian, which were not converted, but it was my understanding that the military surplus purchases were all converted by the Finn armory. I think I remember reading that the Finns didn't buy all of their arsenal from Russia, but some other countries too, that also used the rifles at one time, then put them on the arms market, when replaced by something better.

    KB
    Last edited by Kabluewy; 03-28-2007 at 15:10.

  10. #10

    Default About Finnish Made Mosin Nagants

    Greetings from Finland! First, hello to everyone! I am a keen hunter from Finland and I am regularly following your good sites. My occupation is offficer and that is why this subject is so familiar to me. So maybe I can help you in this matter...

    First of all you are mostly wrong and right!? The origin of the finnish Mosin Nagant is russian. When Finland fought its independency at the end of WWI we captured a lot of russian rifles from the former occupiers so that was the easiest way to start collecting material to our army - we got those rifles allmost without money but definitely not without blood! Basic truth is this: lock actions including the lock bolt are russian and the barrels, sights and the stocks are (proudly)finnish made!

    The first effort to modify that rifle was at the end of 1920's when the rifle m 28-30 saw the first light. It was purposely made for the finnish militia - protection guards - the organization which you could say, was the cornerstone and the backbone for the succesfull war efforts in 1939-40 (the Winter War) and the Continiution War 1941-45. In late 1930's army re-developed this rifle and it got a name jv kiv m/39 - the finnish infantry rifle model 1939. They never got time to be issued to the winter war but the were widely used in the cotiniution war in 1941-45.

    After ending the WWII it was the basic weapon besides with our kp 1931 ( the machine pistol m/1931). Just to surprise you I can tell that this simple but trustworthy rifle was in service to the 1970's when it was replaced in all branches. The follower was Kalashnikov based but finnish made assault rifle using again the russian cartridge 7,62 x 39 - for the practical reasons; during the war time we can just use the enemy's ammo and that can make logistic issues easy the solve...

    The caliber is using the "western" 7,62 bullets and we know the caliber officially as 7.62 x 53R. Our eastern "friends" call it 7.62 x 54R - nevertheless both are working but we prefer our own ammo which are produced in a first class finnish quality (like SAKO rifles and Lapua-ammunition).

    Finally I can tell that as an officer I can buy those rifles in a very good price: 130 euros which is about 100$. The rifles are re-barreled, re-stocked in a condition of A1. They have been fired two high pressue cartridges and five regular/standard ones. I bought one in the beginning of last Oct. I swept the barrel clean and headed to the shooting range. First three shots were so that two bullets in one rugged hole and the third one opend a little bit - result 4 cm= little more than 1,5 inches. Not so bad... For the next serie I did my concentration and I squuezed 16 mm = 0.6 inches!!! I am sorry to say this but the the best ones are sold here in Finland... Those coming over the Atlantic ocean are not near the best ones.

    This is not a very modest way end this message but after a few weeks I will get my second one of these rifles. This is the last serie of the A1 conditioned rifles. I am very proud to own this vanishing part of our military and weapon history! In the former days Sako rifles used to be in the same level - now Beretta is owning Sako and the quality is getting worse. Nowadays I personally prefer Remingtons before Sakos... I have allways liked Remington but as a patriot I used to favour finnish made rifles. Nowadays I am a friend of those rifles which are made in the States! Times are changing...

    KTo

    Ruger MK II Safari Magnum .375 H&H
    Ruger MK II 77/22 .22 WMRF
    Ruger Alaskan . 454 Casull
    Remington 700 Police .308 win
    Remington 700 Alaska Wilderness rifle .300 Wby Mag
    Remington Seven XCR 308 win (pre ordered)
    Blaser Shotgun-rifle 12/76 & 9,3 x 74R
    Finnish Infantry rifle 7.62 x53 R

  11. #11

    Default About Finnish Made Mosin Nagants

    Greetings from Finland! First, hello to everyone! I am a keen hunter from Finland and I am regularly following your good sites. My occupation is offficer and that is why this subject is so familiar to me. So maybe I can help you in this matter...

    First of all you are mostly wrong and right!? The origin of the finnish Mosin Nagant is russian. When Finland fought its independency at the end of WWI we captured a lot of russian rifles from the former occupiers so that was the easiest way to start collecting material to our army - we got those rifles allmost without money but definitely not without blood! Basic truth is this: lock actions including the lock bolt are russian and the barrels, sights and the stocks are (proudly)finnish made!

    The first effort to modify that rifle was at the end of 1920's when the rifle m 28-30 saw the first light. It was purposely made for the finnish militia - protection guards - the organization which you could say, was the cornerstone and the backbone for the succesfull war efforts in 1939-40 (the Winter War) and the Continiution War 1941-45. In late 1930's army re-developed this rifle and it got a name jv kiv m/39 - the finnish infantry rifle model 1939. They never got time to be issued to the winter war but the were widely used in the cotiniution war in 1941-45.

    After ending the WWII it was the basic weapon besides with our kp 1931 ( the machine pistol m/1931). Just to surprise you I can tell that this simple but trustworthy rifle was in service to the 1970's when it was replaced in all branches. The follower was Kalashnikov based but finnish made assault rifle using again the russian cartridge 7,62 x 39 - for the practical reasons; during the war time we can just use the enemy's ammo and that can make logistic issues easy the solve...

    The caliber is using the "western" 7,62 bullets and we know the caliber officially as 7.62 x 53R. Our eastern "friends" call it 7.62 x 54R - nevertheless both are working but we prefer our own ammo which are produced in a first class finnish quality (like SAKO rifles and Lapua-ammunition).

    Finally I can tell that as an officer I can buy those rifles in a very good price: 130 euros which is about 100$. The rifles are re-barreled, re-stocked in a condition of A1. They have been fired two high pressue cartridges and five regular/standard ones. I bought one in the beginning of last Oct. I swept the barrel clean and headed to the shooting range. First three shots were so that two bullets in one rugged hole and the third one opend a little bit - result 4 cm= little more than 1,5 inches. Not so bad... For the next serie I did my concentration and I squuezed 16 mm = 0.6 inches!!! I am sorry to say this but the the best ones are sold here in Finland... Those coming over the Atlantic ocean are not near the best ones.

    This is not a very modest way end this message but after a few weeks I will get my second one of these rifles. This is the last serie of the A1 conditioned rifles. I am very proud to own this vanishing part of our military and weapon history! In the former days Sako rifles used to be in the same level - now Beretta is owning Sako and the quality is getting worse. Nowadays I personally prefer Remingtons before Sakos... I have allways liked Remington but as a patriot I used to favour finnish made rifles. Nowadays I am a friend of those rifles which are made in the States! Times are changing...

    KTo

    Ruger MK II Safari Magnum .375 H&H
    Ruger MK II 77/22 .22 WMRF
    Ruger Alaskan . 454 Casull
    Remington 700 Police .308 win
    Remington 700 Alaska Wilderness rifle .300 Wby Mag
    Remington Seven XCR 308 win (pre ordered)
    Blaser Shotgun-rifle 12/76 & 9,3 x 74R
    Finnish Infantry rifle 7.62 x53 R

  12. #12
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    Default Finnish Mosin Nagant

    Thanks for the info Finnhunter.

    In my experience being mostly right and often wrong is about as good as it gets. Fortunately or unfortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, I'm getting used to it.

    KB

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    Default 7.62x53R

    I have a custom Encore barrel in 7.62x53R, and use the Lapua brass and bullets, and loaded ammo, which is excellent. I haven't shot the rifle much yet, but so far it's very accurate, and fun.

    All that history about the Finn rifles is interesting to know.

    KB

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    The 7.62x54R and the 7.62x53R are absolutely not the same cartridge
    YES, they are. To say that they are different cartridges suggests that they cannot be swapped back and forth, which is simply not true. The Finns use a different term and may load with .308" bullets. The diameter difference does NOT make them two different cartridges. Neither does the slightly shorter Lapua brass. It's simply a different loading style. Only some pre-war Finns have true .308" bores. Here is the rundown from the man who wrote "Rifles of the White Death":

    http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/Bowser.asp

    Doug Bowser's Answer:

    .....The M28/30 is the only Finn rifle that was bored .3082". The others were .3095", except for the M39 which is .310". The Finn Government decided to make the M39 .310" to make it more compatible with the Soviet ammo. This was before the war started with Russia in October 1939. They knew the danger from the USSR and took steps accordingly.

    The "S" type ( 180 gr flat based ) and the D46 type ( step boatailed) ammo the Finns produced at SAKO and Valtion Patrunnas Tehdas ( State Cartridge Factory ) was manufactured with .309" bullets. The D100 ( 200 gr step boatail) ammo was also .309". I believe the Finns were concerned with oversized bullets in the M28/30 or they would have manufactured their ammo with .310" bullets. I do not believe the practice of firing .310" surplus ammo in the M28/30 is dangerous, IF the barrel shank is marked with the "D". The real problem with oversized bullets is the possibility of the bullet being squeezed to tightly by the neck of the cartridge by the neck of the chamber. ...
    Doug Bowser

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    Just to surprise you I can tell that this simple but trustworthy rifle was in service to the 1970's when it was replaced in all branches.
    No surprise here. I had a very nice 1970 M-39 until I unwisely parted with it. I'm still looking for a new one.

    Thanks for your input! Have you checked out the Collector's Forum:

    http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=1

    It's a huge Mosin fan site. A lot of us stateside have caught the Mosin bug big time.

    I have a custom Encore barrel in 7.62x53R, and use the Lapua brass and bullets, and loaded ammo, which is excellent. I haven't shot the rifle much yet, but so far it's very accurate, and fun.
    Now that's cool! I've heard people talk about doing that, but never seen it. I'd encourage you to post some pics over on the mosin forum if you've got a digital cam. It has to be one of a kind.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmoline View Post
    YES, they are. To say that they are different cartridges suggests that they cannot be swapped back and forth, which is simply not true. The Finns use a different term and may load with .308" bullets. The diameter difference does NOT make them two different cartridges. Neither does the slightly shorter Lapua brass. It's simply a different loading style. Only some pre-war Finns have true .308" bores. Here is the rundown from the man who wrote "Rifles of the White Death":
    Cosmo - uhhh - I don't think I said they could not be swapped back and forth. I think I said either cartridge could be shot in either barrel, but the correct cartridge differes depending on the grove diameter.

    The Finns actually load .308

    The diameter of the bullet ALWAYS makes them a different cartridge. It has nothing to do with loading style, but everything to do with grove diameter.

    I don't run .311 or .312 bullet through my Encore .308 barrel. Likewise I suspect that you will find very few who load .311 or .312 bullets in their 308 Winnie or 06, 0r the various 300 mags. For the same reasons that just isn't done or heard of, it's also true of the 7.62 cartridges we are talking about. It's only done with them because some people don't know any better, or don't care, or are just plain sloppy.

    I bought some of those Lapua 200 gr boat tail bullets which they say are specifically for the 7.62 x whatever, and found them to be .309. They shoot crap for accuracy in my encore.

    KB

  17. #17

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    Kiitos, Finnhunter! (Sorry to say, despite having two Finnish grandparents, the only other phrase I know is Hyvää jouloua ja onnellista uutta vuotta . . . )

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    The diameter of the bullet ALWAYS makes them a different cartridge.
    I think we're using different definitions of "cartridge." There are many cartridges that can be loaded with different diameter bullets, and that does not make them two distinct cartridges. For example, it's common practice to load cast lead bullets of a slightly wider diameter than jacketed bullets out of the same cartridge. That doesn't create a new cartridge.

    You have a custom .308" barrel, so it makes sense to load with .308" bullets. But that doesn't mean the Finns used .308" barrels--see Doug's note. Nor does it mean a 7.62x54/53R loaded with a .308" bullet is a different cartridge from a 7.62x54/53" loaded with wider bullets. I've loaded my 54R's with everything from .308" bullets to .312" bullets, but they're still the same cartridge.

    I bought some of those Lapua 200 gr boat tail bullets which they say are specifically for the 7.62 x whatever, and found them to be .309. They shoot crap for accuracy in my encore.
    That's because the Finns DID NOT use a .308" barrel very often, and the D-166 bullet for the 7.62x53R was designed to be shot out of the D chamber Finns with bores of about .309"-.310"

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    Looking for some 1930 "D" ammo heavy machine gun 182 gr in 7.62x54R at 2297fps Jeff in North Pole

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska Bush Hunter View Post
    Looking for some 1930 "D" ammo heavy machine gun 182 gr in 7.62x54R at 2297fps Jeff in North Pole
    Did you really mean to post this in a nearly five year old thread?

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