Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: minimum loads- whats safe?

  1. #1
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default minimum loads- whats safe?

    how much can i safely go BELOW the minimum load data in the book?

    I want to make some managed recoil loads but the powders listed are not to be found.


    Have go the new 30.06 in for the oldest and picked up a nice light 270 for the other 12 year old now..

    i want to make plinking rounds that do not cost much and get them shooting A LOT with minimal shoulder trauma for now and slowly build them up some more..


    or is there a powder comparison scale..??? if can not find my powder listed.. is there a near substitute to start low at ?and work around it?

    i am looking for

    SR 4759
    AA 5744

    for the two Cal's..

    or something equivalent.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  2. #2
    Member Kay9Cop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    789

    Default

    Here you go: http://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_recoil_reloads.htm

    I use the 150 grain .30-06 loads for small game and plinking. You can pick up bulk Remington PSPCL bullets from Midway for pretty cheap.
    "Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."

  3. #3
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kay9Cop View Post
    Here you go: http://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_recoil_reloads.htm

    I use the 150 grain .30-06 loads for small game and plinking. You can pick up bulk Remington PSPCL bullets from Midway for pretty cheap.

    thanks K-9... i have seen that one before the hard part is getting the SR powder..

    hence the question of dropping beow the minimum charge posted in the book...

    say if one powder minimum charge was 49gn @~3000fps could i safely drop it back to ~47/47.5 to lower the velocity to less then ~2200 fps on a light bullet?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  4. #4

    Default

    As a general rule of thumb it's supposed to be "safer" to drop charge levels with jacketed bullets when using faster burning powders than with slow ones. I'm not a ballistician and don't have the machinery to test pressures, so I've pretty well stuck with the manuals. Any time I've gone sneaking below the minimums in books, it's always been with the fastest powders listed for a particular caliber. No science to it, just juevos I think.

    That's because there's a very good alternative out there, and the one I use. Pick up a copy of Lyman's cast bullet manual and have a look. Lots of medium and low velocity loads for most calibers with what are essentially pistol or shotgun powders. Even if you don't want to get into casting your own, there are lots of sources of pre-cast, some right here in Alaska. And even buying them, cast bullets are going to be cheaper than jacketed.

    If they're made right and you do your part there's no problem with leading, so cast bullets are a winner all the way around.

  5. #5
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    thanks BB... so what are the RISKS? to lower charges? obviously it is not a pressure concern. so why is there a minimum????... if it pushes that slug out of the end...?????????

    obviously there are accuracy issues but that is not a concern. at this junctor. i just want them shooting new guns with out any second thought. and grow them into hunting rounds.

    thanks
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  6. #6

    Default

    I've never had it happen or seen it happen, but according to reports there are several possible outcomes.

    With the old half-jacket style bullets, whether pistol bullets from Speer or homemade with old equipment for making your own jacketed bullets, there's the possibility of the jacket remaining in the bore while the lead keeps on going, creating a nasty barrel obstruction.

    Another possibility is the crossover point when the gas doesn't push a bullet out the bore, even as pressures aren't high enough to swell the case and make a complete gas seal around the chamber. All that gas has to go somewhere, and it comes back into the action and maybe into your face. I have seen this one happen.

    Yet another you always hear about, but thankfully I've never seen, apparently happens with reduced loads of slower burning powders. For some reason the powder simply explodes or detonates rather than burning progressively and pushing the bullet down the bore. That creates very high pressure spikes that have the potential for dismantling a firearm in spite of the reduced charge. Too bad Murphy doesn't appear to be hanging around lately, because I recall that he's looked into this one pretty carefully and written about it in the past.

    As for your ambitions to "i just want them shooting new guns with out any second thought. and grow them into hunting rounds", cast bullets work just fine for that. Once you've bought or cast them, they're sitting on your shelf just like a box of jacketed bullets and you can use them freely for your lower power loads. When it's time to load for more power, just switch to jacketed. It's exactly like using cheaper jacketed bullets for practice and switching to premiums for hunting.

  7. #7
    Member Kay9Cop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    789

    Default

    I've seen SR4759 on the shelves at Sentry Hardware in North Pole and Sportsman's. I picked up another can about a month ago.
    "Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."

  8. #8
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    thanks BB... so what are the RISKS? to lower charges? obviously it is not a pressure concern. so why is there a minimum????...
    thanks
    Yes there are pressure concerns with rifle powders and some slower pistol powders. Like BB said they can detonate like a bomb if all goes wrong. H110 and W298 pistol powders are very well known to do this in light loads, so much so that they have warnings on the can and in many load manuals.

    BB has you pointed right with cast and fast powders like Unique, Bulseye, Clays and so on.
    Andy
    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
    Call/Text 602-315-2406
    Phoenix Arizona

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southwest Alaska
    Posts
    2,145

    Default

    Just call Accurate and you can speak to a ballistician in the lab. They'll give you a 5744 load for your cartridge.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    bristol bay
    Posts
    19

    Default light loads

    vince another option could be sub caliber inserts.you shoot a lesser round out of your normal caliber .ie 308 out of your 30-06 there is a whole list of those avaible.other then that like some of the others have said cast is the way to go.you can put some pollester batting between the powder and bullet .it keeps the powder in the case the same so you will maintain about the same burn rate.

  11. #11
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    5,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    (sic)

    Yet another you always hear about, but thankfully I've never seen, apparently happens with reduced loads of slower burning powders. For some reason the powder simply explodes or detonates rather than burning progressively and pushing the bullet down the bore. That creates very high pressure spikes that have the potential for dismantling a firearm in spite of the reduced charge. Too bad Murphy doesn't appear to be hanging around lately, because I recall that he's looked into this one pretty carefully and written about it in the past.

    (sic)
    I've heard this referred to as Secondary Explosing Effect (SEE) you can google it to read up on it. It is not a well understood or repeatable phenomena. What I have read that makes sense to me is that with a light load of a slow burning powder the primer has enough force to push the bullet out of the case and into the rifling. The powder has not started to burn sufficiently to produce enough pressure to start the bullet down the bore, so the bullet stops. The bore is now obstructed, the powder is still burning and the gun blows up.

    The term slow burning is relative, and my understanding is that it is not just the speed of the powder, but the deterent coatings and how easily the powder lights off. H-110 and W-296 are not slow powders on the spectrum of powder burn rates, but they are slow in terms of handgun powders, and light charges of those powders have resulted in several guns being disasembled in a violent manner.

    I've made up reduced loads using blue dot in the .308, accuracy in incredible and recoil very mild.

  12. #12
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    but what is considered LIGHT LOADS? i thought the rule of thumb was 10% low and work up from there? if i am understanding all this correctly then 10% below the minimum load in the book is a potential NO NO?

    i am just trying to understand the limits of this stuff at this point I was able to get a lb of the 4759 to work on the 270. and light speer bullets to start her with... ( 243 was the largest she has shot yet) so the worry is over. but i would like to know how far is safe and not?

    because now it is sounding like i have no starting point if i don't have abook for that bullet or powder.. with Min's and Max's how does a guy start low if too low blows him up too?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Eureka MT
    Posts
    3,048

    Default

    You are getting into an experimental area and although others have gone there, you may have trouble finding data. If you can read pressure sign well you can start with cast bullet loads using jacketed bullets. Start at the starting load and gradually work up until you see pressure signs. If that isn't enough velocity for you, then go to a slower burn rate powder and start again. Jacketed bullets will produce higher pressures per grain of powder than cast so start low and work up. There are a lot of powders that should work well such as Red Dot, 700x, Green Dot, Unique, SR7625, Herco, SR4726, SR4759, RX7, IMR3031, Win748 and others. I would probably start with IMR3031 and 29grs and expect about 2100/2200 fps and should be able to work up to around 38grs for around 2600/2700 fps with a 130gr jacketed bullet. If you are not familiar with reading pressure signs then don't mess with this type of loading. The IMR load I have suggested is my guess at a starting load and should not be taken as a certified tested load. Most people will not move out of given tested loads and with good reason. Finding a safe starting point without proper test equiptment can be dangerous. Exactly how far can you go under given loads is probably unknown as the SEE is not consistant and certainly would not be consistant from one gun to another. Most loaders believe bottom end cast bullet loads to be safe with jacketed bullets although you should expect a little higher pressure. Top end loads need to be worked up to as always.

  14. #14
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    5,594

    Default

    By light I ment below the minimum published in the books. I believe the rule of thumb is 10% below max load and work up. I don't believe I've ever started at 10% below minimum and then worked up to max.

    It's just a warning that some powders do strange things when loaded too low. Some powders are very flexible and can be loaded over a large range of charges from very light on up. I've loaded unique down to levels that it wasn't enough to push a cast bullet out of a rifle, but that was down to less than 1 gr of powder.

    The advice is to stick with published data, and there are powders out there that can be loaded way down, and with data for those loads. I have used blue dot for light .308 loads, 110-125 gr bullets @ 2000-2500 fps, and accuracy has been excellent. I cannot recomend the loads as they aren't published.

    It's just a caveat to be aware that you shouldn't figure you can pick any powder listed in a load manual and use say a 70% charge weight for a reduced load.

  15. #15
    Member marshall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Near Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    1,814

    Default

    I haven't seen this powder or link addressed in this post yet.

    http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf

    Basically anywhere that H-4895 is listed it is said that you can safely start at 60% of a max charge and go up from there.

  16. #16

    Default

    I called Sierra bullets tech line today for information on fire forming 7-30 Waters brass for a contender. I had a can of powder that I do not know what I bought it for, and I had a box of 175 grain bullets that I will never use. They figered me a load using this bullet and powder combo. Great people to help you out when you don't know were else to go. Call 1-800-223-8799 ask for technical support. I hope that number is right to call from Alaska.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •