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Thread: No More Cabin Rentals For Unguided Big Game

  1. #1
    Member anonymous1's Avatar
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    Thumbs down No More Cabin Rentals For Unguided Big Game

    a poor fellow showed up at the Big Game Commercial Services Board meeting today. He testified he was having a hard time understanding where a private property owner with rental cabins fits in. The answer was easy for the gleeful guides. HE DONT and only the legislature can change it.
    Only a licenced guide/outfitter or a licensed transporter who preforms an actual act of transport may rent a cabin in the field to unguided big game hunter who`da thunk it

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Wink does that mean

    that an unguided out of state hunter could not legally rent a State Forest service Cabin, and then hunt out of it?
    The State is not a licensed guide. Also National parks cabins as well ?
    How about a rental car company that you rent in Anchorage and then road hunt in the field, (say Swanson river road) from the car, and use it to transport the game?
    What if a out of state person with a pilot license rents a plane at Merrill field and uses it in the field?
    How about out of state hunters that rent Rafts and use them to float a river in the field?
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  3. #3

    Default Need some clarification on this one?

    Has anyone got a code or website that we can get more info on this? I have been hunting out of a Forest Service cabin for years. If the presumptions are in fact true, then I need to have my brother-in -law send some legal letters out and smoke out the skunks to see how we can get this fixed.

    From now on, I am a bird watcher.......

  4. #4
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
    .......a poor fellow showed up at the Big Game Commercial Services Board meeting today. He testified he was having a hard time understanding where a private property owner with rental cabins fits in.........
    that an unguided out of state hunter could not legally rent a State Forest service Cabin, and then hunt out of it?
    The State is not a licensed guide. Also National parks cabins as well ?
    Note the word "private" in the original post.

    Actually, it's a natural extension of existing law. "Private" means "regulated", or " licensed", or "permitted."

    Don't like it?

    Where have you been? This "stuff" has been "seeping" downhill for a long, long time.

    How about a rental car company that you rent in Anchorage and then road hunt in the field, (say Swanson river road) from the car, and use it to transport the game?
    More "natural extensions."

    Will it come to that?

    I doubt it. The car rental businesses are bigger and badder than the guiding industry (I think).

    What if a out of state person with a pilot license rents a plane at Merrill field and uses it in the field?
    Ding 'em.

    Those fly boys have lots of money..........

    How about out of state hunters that rent Rafts and use them to float a river in the field?
    Ding 'em.

    Those outfitter/rental boys have lots of money.

    Getting the picture yet, folks?

    Liking it?

  5. #5
    Member anonymous1's Avatar
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    Lightbulb true facts I was there

    it all falls under deffinitions of "Field" and "Outfitting". apparantly when the legsislature reautherized the BGCSB they went through the regs word by word and committed a few tweaks. The word "usually" was omitted from the deffinition of "field" because it allowed some exceptions.
    Good point about federal and state owned cabins being used by deer hunters lets work on it talk to your legislator. Anyone know a good constitutional lawyer that likes to hunt. seems like there is somthing about equal access in the State constitution hmmm

  6. #6
    Member Milo's Avatar
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    Default cabins

    One word answer: sublet

  7. #7

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    Whoever was responsible for changing the term "guide" to "guide/outfitter" in the new regs was one smart dude.

    The air/boat based Transporters need to do two things...

    #1 Quit breaking the rules.

    #2 Get together and form an association so they can be heard in mass.

  8. #8
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    Default private owners

    Well, if they cant rent a cabin because they are private, what if someone is renting a motel room and hunting out of it? They are private too. If somebody flies into Craig, and rents a motel room and a car and hunts off the logging road system on Prince of Wales Is. are the people who rent to them guilty of illegal "guiding"? And I wonder how this will affect the outfits in Kodiak that have the floating cabins that you can rent and hunt out of? If they locate them, then transport you out to them, it sounds like they are guilty of "Guiding" without a license.

    I personally don't have a problem with the boat based transporters taking people out deer hunting and staying nearby so the hunters can sleep onboard at night and eat their meals there too, as long as the people running the boat make sure they are transporting and not guiding and all customers know up front they are deciding where to go, not the transporters. The transporters responsibilities would only be to decide where a safe anchorage was for the night and safe operation of the boat. There is room for these types of transporters as well as guides in many cases.

    To prevent abuse, the hunters could fill out and file a trip plan. We are hiring X boat to take us to X Bay and if the hunting isn't satisfactory, or the area is full of other hunters, we plan on going to Y Bay or Z Bay.

    The same can be done with air transporters. There are many responsible transporters out there. I think the problem is with the Johnnie Come Lately's who will push the limits to try to build up a client base.

  9. #9

    Default Over-stepping your authority!

    Forgive me here, but it is getting pretty d*** bad when you have to hire a lawyer just to go hunting. I am getting very tired of the guide/ transporter lobbying effort pulling stunts like this without equal representation for the little man.

    The Sherman Act provides legal remedies for a monopoly of goods and services and this is a clear case of monopolization of both goods and services perpetrated by state agency that has reach far beyond its authority under the law. ADF&G and guide/ transporters you have over step your bounds on this one.

    **** pissed as h&!!.....Bigmnt

  10. #10
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    Default One word can make a difference

    Anonymous1 – you are right – the main word that was taken out of the definition of “field” was the word “usually”.

    Past: If you had a “permanent” cabin, lodge, etc, you could rent it out to hunters because it fell under the usually associated with a town, city,. . . . It had nothing to due with private, state or federal. It was the actual building!

    Now: Since the word “usually” as been taken out, the building, equipment, supplies cannot be outside a town, city, etc. This means ALL buildings including private, state and federal.

    Therefore, you cannot “rent” anything in the field (outside of a city, town, village) or provide anything in the field to a hunter unless you are a guide/outfitter. So, if you find someone in the field that has run out of gas-give them some, but don’t let them pay you for it ---- heaven forbid you are then guiding/outfitting for providing something “in the field”!

    I believe this is just one more step by the guides (the older ones that are established) to make everywhere “their territory” and not allow unguided hunting, transporters or even new guides!

    Look at the big picture. 1st- the 5000 acre rule, only those with permits for uplands can now hunt the tidelands (state land); 2nd – changing rules for transporters and the “grey” line; 3rd- harder to get all guides licenses from start to finish; 4th-changing rules for the buildings/ATV’s/etc. being rented out if it is “in the field”.

    Watch out, they will be making so many rules in a round about way that it will catch everyone off guard. Like in another post; you will need a law degree before getting a hunting license!
    CuriousOne

  11. #11
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    Default Private Property Rights

    CuriousOne
    Thanks for helping enlighten folks on this. Your comments and others have gotten me thinking, State and Federal public use cabin monopoly, Sherman Act, 5000 acre rule (no wonder the 2 private property seats on the board are Native Corps) I wonder if the Pacific Legal Foundation would be interested in wieghing in on something like this or if they are still smarting from Papa Pilgram.
    I`m not sure how to do a link when I tried to slide one in I lost this page but the PLF has some interesting reading on there site for property rights issues.
    Keep this one going boys its bigger than the poor fellow can handle on his own.

  12. #12
    Member jdb3's Avatar
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    Default

    This is interesting. However, the State can not dictate to the Federal Government about how they do business. So I would not worry about the Federal cabins for rent. Eminent Domain works the other way around! Jim

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    Default

    So does that mean some of these lodges that I see advertising themselves as a base camp for hunting are not illegal? This is borderline stupid. Someone is going to have to claify all this, are state and federal cabins effected? Where's the cut off, as the example given about a motel room that a hunter returns to every night. Those people that have cabins in PWS or on POW island are now forbidden to rent them out to hunters? I think we need to contact the governor and legislature, the board is out of control.

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    Default Where is the VERBAGE

    Someone please post the verbage, and wherever this is posted in the Hunting Code/Regulations (AAC or Statute's etc) or "Where" its going to be placed

    Thanks

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigmnt View Post
    Forgive me here, but it is getting pretty d*** bad when you have to hire a lawyer just to go hunting. I am getting very tired of the guide/ transporter lobbying effort pulling stunts like this without equal representation for the little man.
    There is NO Transporter lobbying group. Nor is there a boat based Transporter on the Board.

    That may tell you something about who's making the changes.

  16. #16
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Default

    warmin' up in here, i just want everyone to know that just because some of us hold guide/outfitter licenses DOES NOT mean we agree with some of this stuff. course i'd never heard of this one before and its right up there with one of the most ridiculous ones so far. maybe you need a transporter license to rent out your cabin,its like a boat, just on land. right>

  17. #17
    Member Alasken's Avatar
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    Default Nothing new

    This isn't exactly new news. That "poor fellow" mentioned in the original post has to be properly licensed to rent cabiins to hunters. As far as I know the statute has been in effect for years.

    Here's the verbiage from the statutes:

    Sec. 08.54.650. TRANSPORTER LICENSE. (a) A person is entitled to a transporter license if the person (1) applies for a transporter license on a form provided by the department; and (2) pays the license application fee and the license fee. (b)A transporter may provide transportation services and accommodations to big game hunters in the field at a permanent lodge, house, or cabin owned by the transporter or on a boat with permanent living quarters located on salt water. A transporter may not provide big game hunting services without holding the appropriate license. (c) A transporter shall provide an annual activity report on a form provided by the department. An activity report must contain all information required by the board by regulation.

    And here's the link to download the statutes:

    http://www.dced.state.ak.us/occ/pgui.htm

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    Default !!!!!

    This has nothing to due with private/state/federal, it has nothing to do with resident/non-resident! The whole thing is the definition of “in the field”.

    I apologize that I don’t have the regs in front of me-however, if you do look at them it talks about providing services or supplies “in the field”. If you provide anything “in the field”, you have to have a guide/outfitter license; that is what all the stink is over about transporters.

    So, if anyone rents or sells anything to a hunter (res or non) “in the field” they have to be outfitter/guide or transporter.

    Yes, this is a big deal for the “lodges” that are considered “in the field” by the letter of the definition of the law-unless the lodge is on the state road system or state or federally maintained airport.

    Those lodges, FS cabins, etc. use to be OK because the word “usually” was still in the definition of “field”. (old meaning: field means an area outside of established year-round dwellings, businesses or other developments USUALLY associated with a city, town or village.) Because they were year-round, permanent dwellings, they got away with outfitting.

    Anything that is rented in town is OK. Such as a car, motel room, etc. just as long as it is in a town, city, village when it is officially rented out. If the rental company took an ATV to you on some road and rented it to you there, then that is outfitting because it would be done “in the field”.

    Yes BRWNBR it is ridiculous, but that is what is going on.
    CuriousOne

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    Default

    well alot of ridiculous proposals and changes are going on now because alot of people want to see some changes made so your going to see alot of bad ideas, good ideas and good and bad ideas that end up having more light shed on them like this one.
    I'd like to see the excat reg that has this one in it as well. just seems little to far fetched, not saying it ain't there, cause we've got some dumb ones, i'd just like to see how they phrased it to get it past so many people.

  20. #20
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    Default

    Here we thought bringing back the CSB would make everyone happy!!!!!!!!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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