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Thread: .44 mag Hollow points on Black Bears, cont:

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    Default .44 mag Hollow points on Black Bears, cont:

    Sorry Good People

    In my first post, I didn't post the thread on shooting black bears with hardcast bullets by JJ Hack. It is below.

    I'm sure some of you have used hardcast with success, this article presents a different view point and it is also mine.

    As far as JJ Hack goes, few people have ever been in on so many black bear kills as JJ Hack that they can make a quality determination. JJ is currently guiding clients on Cape Buffalo hunts in South Africa.

    Enjoy.

    AuProspector
    NRA Lifer
    ================================================
    By JJ Hack

    I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

    When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
    handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so IÂ’m quite familiar with them.

    During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

    We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bearÂ’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

    The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

    This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

    The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. ItÂ’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive IÂ’m going to have to shoot him too.

    This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

    There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
    special. ItÂ’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

    So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

    The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop itÂ’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. DonÂ’t mistake me here, I donÂ’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I donÂ’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

    This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
    on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just donÂ’t seem to be able to manage
    consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
    accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

    Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

    The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

    Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.

    Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

    One other thing to consider, donÂ’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They donÂ’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they donÂ’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


    DonÂ’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

    Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. ItÂ’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

    DonÂ’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which donÂ’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

    I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

    jj

  2. #2

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    Bottom line, be a better shot and don't blame the bullet, like he sez. Same applies for both hollow points and hard cast. Neither is a magic pill.

    Black bears are easy to kill with well placed bullets of almost any type. Hard to kill with anything on a bad shot.

    I will say that when a 44 mag Federal factory 240 grain HP failed to completely penetrate a broadside lung shot on a 90 pound forked horn deer at 12 yards, my attention was gathered. Call it 15 inches of deer max, and probably more like 10 inches. Lungs and ribs only. It expanded to about an inch in diameter and stuck under the hide on the far side. Fine for deer. Fine for black bear on the same shot.

    Stick to broadside lung shots on black bear and you'll be happy with 44 mag hollow points.

    But shoot at an angle, and you'll be sorrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    very intersting ... this should stir some pots...


    thanks


    Vince
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  4. #4

    Default one question?

    why would you not shoot a treed bear in the head?
    Most treed bears I've seen are hanging on for dear life and don't pose a real nice chest shot.
    I'll save the chest shots for when the brown stuff is running down my leg and he's closing in fast.
    At that point I won't need some guide telling me to insert more lead, I'll be doing that on my own. 8-.45's away, .....now where is that second clip....

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    I keep liveing useing my experance and say intresting to others experance.I dance with who brung me and it was hard cast.

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    Having grown up hunting lion over dogs many things in that story just don't add up to me. We never tied our dogs with a critter treed since that’s a very good way to let it get away . . . we would hold them. We also held them because the dogs reward for their effort is to get to taste the pray a bit when it falls and you need to be able to pull them off before they do damage. Do it like he describes and you won’t have very good dogs, you will have dogs after deer and that don’t have their hearts fully into treeing pray. Our weapon of choice was a big bad 22lr to the head ever time. Never took a bear over dogs since that’s illegal in Arizona but we treed them often and I have no doubt that a well placed 22lr would drop a black from a tree like a sack of tators.

    I have some 8mm movies I took as a kid back in the 60s of lion hunts and how a 22lr puts the lights out. One of the movies I took was Dad shaking a bob cat out of a little ponderosa and it whooped the snot out of 6 dogs before running off . . . those 6 dogs became imprinted on bob cat revenge and were top trackers after that. I need to find out how to get my old 8mm put on DVD so I can watch them and show people.
    Andy
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    That struck me too, but then I figured my family is just weird. I've only been in on a dozen or so kills of treed blackbears over the years, but we always used a 22. The last thing you want is a wounded bear dropping in the middle of you and your dogs, so you wouldn't think of taking a body shot, hard cast or hollow point, large caliber or small. You didn't take anything but head shots, and a 44 mag seemed awfully foolish. With a 22 it's pop, flop, dead bear. Every single time. I haven't been on a hunt in 30 years, but far as I know my kin are still using 22's.

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    .22 for treed critters here. Mainly cats for me. Between the eyes works nice. My buddies here that hunt bear w/dogs sometimes use something larger than .22. Gets exciting when the bear bays up on the ground and you just have a .22!!! Most of the time the bear picks a dog and charges it. If you are next to that dog...........well, it's fast action.
    "The older I get, the better I was."

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    it is important to note: you can't use rimfire on big game in AK
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    it is important to note: you can't use rimfire on big game in AK
    Or hunt over dogs as far as I can tell.
    Andy
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyoncastle View Post
    why would you not shoot a treed bear in the head?
    Most treed bears I've seen are hanging on for dear life and don't pose a real nice chest shot.
    I'll save the chest shots for when the brown stuff is running down my leg and he's closing in fast.
    At that point I won't need some guide telling me to insert more lead, I'll be doing that on my own. 8-.45's away, .....now where is that second clip....
    Because most people want a skull trophy.

  12. #12

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    Mmmm. True. We were after chops, ribs, hams, roasts and sausage. Head and hides went in the burn barrel.

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    What's this 45 long colt he referred to? Wonder what he would recommend for a big halibut? Or is that about shot placement too? Fun read, thanks for posting it.

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