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Thread: ADF&G Bonus Point Presentation

  1. #1
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default ADF&G Bonus Point Presentation

    This was forwarded along to me by Vince, who asked me to post it due to the large file size. He can fill in the blanks.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    oh yeah .... i got it from rock skipper...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  3. #3

    Default Wow

    What a joke!!! One reason for implementation, is that some hunters are lucky, and some are not...So now we have bonus points, to appease those that are "unlucky". The absurdity is dumbfounding.

  4. #4
    Member sledhands's Avatar
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    Default Permits

    I see an opportunity for more bureaucracy. The draw hunt we have works fine I have put in for bison every year since it's conception and never got one. I have on the other hand drawn multiple other permits. 6 out of 7 one year. New Mexico has tried the others and is back to the random draw. Can we learn from others mistakes or do we need to be at the head of the class here. It just baffles me.

  5. #5
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    Default

    "Numerous states recommend avoiding any move towards a bonus/preference point system"

    That should say it all. If it's not broken, why fix it?

  6. #6

    Default Alaskan's are Ignorant!!!

    Apparently, my fellow every day, hunt for food, hunt for life Alaskan's, are ignorant and ill informed to the plight they are about to experience.

    Brian has posted a power point presentation that, in my humble opinion, unequivocally proves the diminished priority of Alaska's resident hunter.

    This was posted two days ago, and we have a grand total of 23 views, at time of this posting. Four responses. Is this how much we Alaskan's care? Do we care that our rights, our freedoms, and our way of life is being eroded? Do we care that the people entrusted with the management of our resources, are selling us out for the sake of special interests? Apparently not, from the lack or reaction exhibited on this forum.

    First of all, this presentation could have been put together by any junior high school kid, with too much time on his hands. The validation's for implementation are absurd, and the reasoning illogical.

    Let's start at Page #2, "Why a different system?"
    Bullet number 2. "Present system lucky hunters can draw more often than unlucky hunters"

    Ok, that's a statement of pure genius. First of all, who's authority is it to decide who is lucky, versus unlucky. Is that something our goverment needs to be involved in, deciding who is unlucky, versus lucky. Is luck something to be regulated? Or is luck something that can be controlled, and influenced to the benefit of those that can afford it? From the logic of this bonus point system, apparently so.

    Bullet #3. "Some hunters believe that a system that awards perseverence should be implemented".

    Ok, who are these hunters, and why haven't I met them before? I obviously missed the outrage on this forum from those unlucky hunters, putting in for years upon years, begging for a new system. Is this a system overwhelmingly supported by resident Alaskan hunters, or a system overwhelmingly supported by a small group of special interests, with the right politcal connections, and money that talks. Who are these hunters, and why haven't I met them.

    Page 3, Considerations. Well, for the sake of brevity, none of these considerations should have any bearing, or real consequence to the implementation of this system. These are essentially bureaucratic considerations, of no real correlation to the true pro's and con's of a bonus point system. And just to make a simple point, what genuine Alaskan gives a rat's arse how they do it outside. As per fish and game, that is one consideration being taken into account.

    Page 4 and 5, a brief description of Alaska's current system. A system that by any logical sense, is fair, non discriminating, and the only system that provides everyone and equal opportunity, as a lottery should be.

    Page 7, what is a preference point?
    According to F@G, this is not being considered, but really, the difference between a preference point, and a bonus point, is small, and essentially the same thing.
    Well, apparently it is something you buy, with money. Remember, follow the money. Each year you buy a preference point, you have zero chance of drawing. That's right, you pay for an opportunity at nothing. You will not win anything, and you can expect to not win anything for many years, as it will require many years of paying for nothing, to eventually enter the lottery.
    Bullet #4, "Bad for young/old/poor hunters". Awesome, I now have to be a middle aged rich man to have any shot a drawing a permit. Wait, who are these middle aged rich men? They are not me, are they you?

    I would think by this point, everybody should be able to go page by page through this presentation, and see it for the BS that it is. The current system we have, is the only fair system, and the the only one that guarantees us all an equal opportunity at the resources we all collectively own. Anything other than a straight random draw, is discriminatory towards some, and beneficial to those with influence.

    When do we as Alaskan's say enough is enough? Many of us are informed enough, to realize the debacle that was the last BOG meeting, and the current shift to appeasing special interests in regards to Alaskan hunting.

    Special non resident sheep hunts, you betcha!!! More opportunity for non residents in allocations of permits, absolutely!!! That is what we are getting, and to me, the lack or outrage is most appalling.

    Do we care? Is there anything that can be done, or are we forced to take the medicine, and keep our mouths shut? Anybody that loves this state, anyody that loves our freedoms, anybody that loves the way of life that is Alaska, where are you? Enough is enough, and we shouldn't be forced to submit to these special interests? What say you?

    What do us Alaskan's truly feel about the bonus point fiasco that is soon to be upon us, I'd like to hear you opinions....

    J in AK

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    Unhappy Who the heck was at the meeting where this was presented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    This was forwarded along to me by Vince, who asked me to post it due to the large file size. He can fill in the blanks.
    Fairly shockingly devoid of a job properly done.

    Some of the statements appear equally non useful and pure fluff both:
    "Exceptionally unlucky hunters may never draw"

    But the following quote seems spot on, analysis wise, and would also beg the question why we've already just a year ago begun down this road:
    "By increasing the odds in favor of one group of applicants, you are significantly decreasing the odds of others (e.g. young hunters)"

    Another reasoning that hasn't been justified whatsoever is that implementing a system that grants more access to those who persevere in the drawing virtually GUARANTEES that today's GMU boundaries remain as they are now; regardless of whether or not this is in the best interests of the herd, in the future.

    We're not supposed to speak personally here when the information is not complimentary, but it clearly seems to be allowed when the person being referred to is a public one and their own published works/deeds are quoted, so here it is:
    The public information regarding this presentation is that its apparent author is Hollie Miyasaki, who titled it "Overview of Systems". Less than 6 months ago she was in Idaho, showing up at a city council meeting in Iona, speaking publicly. Her contribution was:
    Yep, we got our best guys on this one.

  8. #8
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    well this was posted to filling some of the voids and speculation of the point system that had been running wild with the CSN numbers... this was shown at an AC meeting or two and appears to come out of the archive and may have been the power point used at the BOG meeting last spring... there is no audio with it so speculation can continue to grow... i do have the emails that accompanied the Power point between the author and the person that dug it up. ...

    i do not post Email with out permission and as i was not the original recipient of them.. they are not mine to post.


    but it would appear the author or presenter was Kim Titus
    Kim Titus, Ph.D.
    Chief Wildlife Scientist
    Alaska Department of Fish and Game
    Division of Wildlife Conservation


    hope that helps. if you have questions contact this person they sound very helpful...


    and remember this is only a tiny part of the story..and that MANY HUNTERS even on here; have said they would prefer a point system and be willing to pay for it... folks from the states are going to ask for what they are accustomed too... and there are getting to be more new folks then old folks in a hurry seems like.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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    Angry Bad news

    Wow, thanks for the presentation. I was unsure before viewing that. Now I dont want preference points (unless they are related to years of residency!!!!). The thought of "one and done" for most animals, or opting out of the points system but only having half the permits to choose from all sound like bad news. I feel unlucky in todays system but compared to this I think random draw sounds preferable....
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

  10. #10
    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by J in AK View Post
    Special non resident sheep hunts, you betcha!!! More opportunity for non residents in allocations of permits, absolutely!!! That is what we are getting, and to me, the lack or outrage is most appalling.

    Do we care? Is there anything that can be done, or are we forced to take the medicine, and keep our mouths shut? Anybody that loves this state, anyody that loves our freedoms, anybody that loves the way of life that is Alaska, where are you? Enough is enough, and we shouldn't be forced to submit to these special interests? What say you?

    What do us Alaskan's truly feel about the bonus point fiasco that is soon to be upon us, I'd like to hear you opinions....

    J in AK

    I think you're spot-on. This is a joke,there's nothing wrong with a random draw. We don't owe non-residents anything. Joe Average Hunter doesn't have any money like the special interests to push back. Gotta love the part that says "numerous states don't recommend the system." That makes ya' feel good.

    What are people saying in the A/C's?

    Tim

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    Default Hah

    The funny thing is, bonus points or preference points won't make getting drawn any easier, and in some cases may well make getting drawn harder, especially if everybody starts playing the game of getting points. All this is, is a plan to get more money into the State coffers. If there are 10 tags available and 1,000 people put in for them, only one out of 100 will be drawn. But if people perceive the only way to be drawn is to earn bonus points, you may well have 1,500 to 2,000 applying for the same hunt, decreasing your odds. And even if the number of applicants stays exactly the same, think of this. They will all get a bonus point and the next year you will have 990 people with a bonus point, drawing for those same 10 tags. It would take 100 years for those thousand people to all win a draw at that hunt. There will still be unlucky people who never draw the tag in their lifetime, even with bonus points, so bonus points aren't going to solve that little justification for creating this system.
    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.
    - Jef Mallett

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    Unhappy Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    The funny thing is, bonus points or preference points won't make getting drawn any easier, and in some cases may well make getting drawn harder, especially if everybody starts playing the game of getting points....... It would take 100 years for those thousand people to all win a draw at that hunt.
    I think this about sums it up. Sounds horrific to me.
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

  13. #13

    Default

    Bonus Points is ridiculous. LEAVE IT ALONE! Its expensive and wont satisfy the cry babies anyway, there will always be complainers when they dont draw. Disgusts me. Random is the only fair system. ONLY fair system.

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    Default wow

    Quote Originally Posted by whitepalm View Post
    Bonus Points is ridiculous. LEAVE IT ALONE! Its expensive and wont satisfy the cry babies anyway, there will always be complainers when they dont draw. Disgusts me. Random is the only fair system. ONLY fair system.
    Would it be possible to pack more emotion and less reasoning into a single post? I think not.

  15. #15

    Default

    Exactly the same type of reaction that brought us to the bonus point system were facing now.

    I dont have a solution, I just dont agree with the direction this is going. Why waste the resources to implement a system that doesnt solve anything and makes it harder for new hunters to participate in some of these hunts.

    Besides, reasoning doesnt seem to be getting through to the people making these decisions, sorry if it bothered you.

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    Default two or three sides to this

    Quote Originally Posted by whitepalm View Post
    ...I dont have a solution, I just dont agree with the direction this is going. Why waste the resources to implement a system that doesnt solve anything and makes it harder for new hunters to participate in some of these hunts.
    I can see a couple of sides to this.

    On one hand, the person that is looking to apply for a bison tag for the next 40 years and has the odds of NOT drawing one ever, can look to points as a salvation in that they'll probably get the tag that way.

    But on the other hand, increased access for anyone means decreased access for others. You'll find yourself almost playing a game with your yearly applications, because a single screwed up application or bounced payment puts you behind a huge pack of people that have just one more point than you have.

    So if/when implemented, anyone that doesn't get on the point-getting bandwagon immediately and consistently, every single year getting a point, is left behind with WAY worse odds than we have today.

  17. #17

    Default

    Just because someone wants a Bison tag shouldnt mean we have to implement a system that limits opportunity to new hunters, in fact it should be the opposite and the argument should be stronger to remain at a random opportunity drawing for everyone.

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    Default limiting opportunity

    Quote Originally Posted by whitepalm View Post
    Just because someone wants a Bison tag shouldnt mean we have to implement a system that limits opportunity to new hunters, in fact it should be the opposite and the argument should be stronger to remain at a random opportunity drawing for everyone.
    We presently do somewhat limit older hunter's opportunities with today's youth-only draw hunts. Do you propose that we do more?

    I agree that taking action that significantly takes opportunity away from new hunters isn't good for the hunting's future.

  19. #19
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks Vince for putting my head on the chopping block.

    ( My phones been down for awhile)

    However that was sent to me along with a lot of other concerns, and I'm putting them in Vinces hands from now on. (he's a better speaker than I am)

    If you would have not seen this and it crept up on you,, how would you feel?

    Get involved people.

    Either you like it or you don't, if the vote goes the way you don't like, you only have your selfs to blame if you do nothing.

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