Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: BoG Meeting, a learning experience.

  1. #1
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default BoG Meeting, a learning experience.

    Been a long time since I was at a Board meeting. Really had no idea how to play the game, but I did some learning. Believe me, the whole thing is a game, and knowing how to play makes all the difference.
    One of the first things I learned was just how difficult it is for any one person, sitting on a Board such as this, to really grasp and fully understand all the issues surrounding each proposal or issue before them. Rarely did any member I watched have a viable understanding of the legal, biological, or social issues involved with each proposal.
    The next thing I learned was the Dept. (ADF&G) goes into these meetings with a team attitude. They have many players, including legal, enforcement, administrative, and biological, all working together every day of the meeting. This team makes sure their respective viewpoint is continually in front of each member.
    Thirdly, I learned that these team members, ESPECIALLY KEVIN SAXBY, have no problem blowing smoke on any issue if Board members seem to be swayed by public input.

    The meeting was arranged so public testimony was done first. This puts you at a disadvantage right away. Any thing you say, the dept will have time to prepare to respond to. Once your 5 min are up, that's the last time you get to speak on the record. When the Board hears the proposals for a certain unit, the Region staff sit at the table and have all the time in the world to speak and discuss the issue with the Board.

    Here's an example:
    One of the proposals was to lengthen the spring griz season in 22C. At our AC meeting, the dept was against this proposal as there was not any decent bear pop. data currently. Also, earlier spring hunting results in higher bear harvest. The dept has regularly opposed anything that will increase bear harvest in this area, despite complaints from locals about high bear numbers. The AC supported this proposal.
    At the meeting, now the dept reason for opposing was that adjacent units had lower moose numbers and calf survival. The dept didn't want more bear hunting in 22C to take hunters away from adjacent units. This was mostly smoke, as the bag limit in adjacent units is one bear per year. 22C bag limit is one every 4. Additionally, The proposed opening date for 22C was May 1. Much of the adjacent units are thawing and unreachable by this date. The dept staff knew all this but only told the Board what they wanted the members to hear. Of course, no one knew this would be the new reason for opposing. So we had no chance to speak to it at testimony.

    There is hope tho. During breaks, citizens have a chance to speak privately with Board members, and try to sway them to your side. Board members will even seek you out if your testimony impresses them.

    Pretty hard to beat the Dept, if they aren't on your side. Even with AC support, the Dept will do anything they can to promote their side. Not sure what changes would make things better.
    This was definitely an enjoyable experience tho. Even if I didn't fully get what I wanted out of it. Hope to try one out again some time.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Been a long time since I was at a Board meeting. Really had no idea how to play the game, but I did some learning. Believe me, the whole thing is a game, and knowing how to play makes all the difference.
    One of the first things I learned was just how difficult it is for any one person, sitting on a Board such as this, to really grasp and fully understand all the issues surrounding each proposal or issue before them. Rarely did any member I watched have a viable understanding of the legal, biological, or social issues involved with each proposal.
    The next thing I learned was the Dept. (ADF&G) goes into these meetings with a team attitude. They have many players, including legal, enforcement, administrative, and biological, all working together every day of the meeting. This team makes sure their respective viewpoint is continually in front of each member.
    Thirdly, I learned that these team members, ESPECIALLY KEVIN SAXBY, have no problem blowing smoke on any issue if Board members seem to be swayed by public input.

    The meeting was arranged so public testimony was done first. This puts you at a disadvantage right away. Any thing you say, the dept will have time to prepare to respond to. Once your 5 min are up, that's the last time you get to speak on the record. When the Board hears the proposals for a certain unit, the Region staff sit at the table and have all the time in the world to speak and discuss the issue with the Board.

    Here's an example:
    One of the proposals was to lengthen the spring griz season in 22C. At our AC meeting, the dept was against this proposal as there was not any decent bear pop. data currently. Also, earlier spring hunting results in higher bear harvest. The dept has regularly opposed anything that will increase bear harvest in this area, despite complaints from locals about high bear numbers. The AC supported this proposal.
    At the meeting, now the dept reason for opposing was that adjacent units had lower moose numbers and calf survival. The dept didn't want more bear hunting in 22C to take hunters away from adjacent units. This was mostly smoke, as the bag limit in adjacent units is one bear per year. 22C bag limit is one every 4. Additionally, The proposed opening date for 22C was May 1. Much of the adjacent units are thawing and unreachable by this date. The dept staff knew all this but only told the Board what they wanted the members to hear. Of course, no one knew this would be the new reason for opposing. So we had no chance to speak to it at testimony.

    There is hope tho. During breaks, citizens have a chance to speak privately with Board members, and try to sway them to your side. Board members will even seek you out if your testimony impresses them.

    Pretty hard to beat the Dept, if they aren't on your side. Even with AC support, the Dept will do anything they can to promote their side. Not sure what changes would make things better.
    This was definitely an enjoyable experience tho. Even if I didn't fully get what I wanted out of it. Hope to try one out again some time.
    The various agencies certainly present united fronts at least as far as the individual agency is concerned. I've always found Kevin S. to be pretty straight with his answers though often from a different prospective.
    Not that proposals have to or should be required to have ADF&G support though certainly helps to discuss proposals with them and enforcement ahead of time.
    One "nice" thing about bear issues is the amount of harvest data and research that has been done.
    Joe (Ak)

  3. #3
    Member bushrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Now residing in Fairbanks from the bush
    Posts
    4,363

    Default

    Mike, thanks for the post.

    It's a shame the Dept doesn't speak first, and give their ppt presentations on the proposals. Not sure why they changed it around to where the public gives input first.

    I've mentioned before how sharp Mr. Saxby is on the legal side. Board is lucky to have him for as long as he is with the AG's office.

    One thing I've seen in the last year or so that has been detrimental to this whole public process is that the Dept A&Rs no longer come out before the comment deadline. And you can't get info ahead of time from the Dept either on whether or not they support or oppose something, and why. In the past it was very helpful to us to review the Dept A&Rs prior to submitting comments, so we had a better grasp of any biological concerns, harvest data etc.

    Thanks for taking the time to be a part of it. How'd the muskox horn trophy destruction proposal go?

    I heard the Board passed the one guide proposal to guarantee 10% of permits to non-residents, instead of just "up to" 10%.

  4. #4

    Wink

    By Law, the meetings are held to...well....Formalize the process.

    I could go on for a very long time; but why re-state the obvious?

    To think that the BOG/BOF Public Hearings process' are any different than others shows a total lack of knowlege on one's part, in just how govt works. To think any different is just silly.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  5. #5
    New member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Is it a concern of anyone else in our state, the number of Sheep permits being GUARUNTEED to Non-residents?!!!!! It seems to me that the number of permits Given to non-residents in units 14 and 13 is over 20% of the available permits in those areas. I Know the proposal that got the board leaning toward this idea was proposed by a local guide saying it would drop the number of out of state hunters in these areas. There are also two hunts in unit 14C were local/resident hunters cannot even hunt sheep on the opener. I for one, am not at all happy about these changes and intend to start doing the homework neccesary in making a case against this change in the future. Most states allow non-residents to draw a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 10% of the available permits. I can understand why guides wanted this past so they have guarunteed clients each year which equates into guarunteed income....but this resource belongs to us as Alaskans. I am not opposed to letting non-residents hunt in our great state but I am opposed to the percentages of permits being guarunteed. How do others feel about this issue?

  6. #6
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    13,393

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Mark View Post
    There are also two hunts in unit 14C were local/resident hunters cannot even hunt sheep on the opener.

    I am not opposed to letting non-residents hunt in our great state but I am opposed to the percentages of permits being guarunteed. How do others feel about this issue?
    Doc - There was a thread about this from a few weeks ago. It'll give you a decent feel for how some folks on here feel about this:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=65548

    Feel free to chime in on the linked thread. When the time comes to submit a relevant proposal, get ahold of me. I'd be happy to work together to get something passed that might address the ever-increasing # of guaranteed non-resident tags.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Doc - There was a thread about this from a few weeks ago. It'll give you a decent feel for how some folks on here feel about this:

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=65548

    Feel free to chime in on the linked thread. When the time comes to submit a relevant proposal, get ahold of me. I'd be happy to work together to get something passed that might address the ever-increasing # of guaranteed non-resident tags.
    Not trying to tell you guys what to do, but maybe toss some thoughts in about how to do it...

    If you're hoping to get something passed that you propose at the BoG meetings, your chances should be a lot better if you find a way to have dialogues with some of the BoG and ADF&G members in the months leading up to the meetings. That way you can get some sense of possible supporters and opponents, and possibly also get some input from members on how best to present your case. If you're really lucky, maybe someone on the Board would even critique your proposal prior to the meetings.

    A great first step would be to discuss the process with someone like Bushrat who has been through the process many times...really speeds up the learning curve, and helps to remove the newbie feel to your proposals.

    Good luck,

    MDHunter

  8. #8

    Thumbs up

    Probably the best advice would be to discuss the merits of the proposal with those that have successfully had proposals adopted. Ask how they went about gaining acceptance and follow that line of thought to the Tee. Even if it might seem somewhat unorthodox to you.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  9. #9
    Member Chisana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    1,439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    The next thing I learned was the Dept. (ADF&G) goes into these meetings with a team attitude. They have many players, including legal, enforcement, administrative, and biological, all working together every day of the meeting. This team makes sure their respective viewpoint is continually in front of each member.
    You almost imply that this is a bad thing. Almost.

    One way the BOG process could be improved is to adopt the committee structure that the BOF uses. Brian and I were discussing this very issue earlier in the week. The BOF groups similar proposals into committees and assigns 2-3 BOF members to head that committee. Then a group of public panel members representing the full range of user groups is selected. The committee meets with department staff and they go through each proposal in attempt to explore the pros and cons and find consensus. A written report is prepared from that committee meeting and made available to the public who may comment on it. Then when deliberations begin each BOF committee chair presents the work the committee did on that proposal. I find it to be a very useful and public collaborative process.

  10. #10

    Wink

    There are multiple ways the BOG Process could be improved. But...do not allow your thoughts or wishes to detract from the business at hand. To work on process improvement is an entirely different matter than getting a proposal passed. If you go into the process wanting to change up the way of doing business your proposal is doomed from the beginning.

    Gotta work with the system you got, instead of the system you wish you had. Or..go home shaking your head, cause "they just don't understand what you were trying to accomplish".
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  11. #11
    New member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Hey Doc yes it is a concern of mine and I have done some homework on this. Please everone pass this on to everyone you know. FYI 14c sheep with only 10 Non resident tag winners in 2009 why has f+g decided to GUARANTEE 17 in 2010? lets take East fork Eklutna for example 3 tags 1 each for DS127, DS128, DS129. 2010 f+g decided to guarantee 1 tag to non residents (yes that is 33% of the total tags for the hunt) to only 7.5% of the total applicants. This increased the odds for non residents from 1% to 5% that is a 5X increase and by doing this lowered resident to less than .8%!!!!! with 266 total applicants for this hunt (246 resident and 20 non resident). This change will lower all chances of ever drawing a 14c sheep tg for residents and raise the chance for non residents. Does anyone have any feelings on this? O and by the way most all the hunts that have been changed are this ugly!!!!

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Martentrapper...Why all the whining!!

    Did anyone from Nome give public testimony on 22C brown bear proposal?? If there isn't public comment and ADFG has the floor then Board Members have nothing to go by.

    Maybe instead of whining on this forum you need to be advocating to your fellow Nome residents and dragging your friends to the next Board of Game. It's a game so start playing MartenTrapper.

  13. #13
    Member Phish Finder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Searching for more cowbell!
    Posts
    1,945

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pdickinson View Post
    Does anyone have any feelings on this?
    That's a good ole boy deal if I've ever seen one. You can't get easier access for folks who are short on time and big on dough. Find out who's guiding the hunts and who their friends are on the Board. IMHO it's a bit of pork for a few.

    Pork barrel politics keep this state running (unfortunately).
    ><((((>.`..`.. ><((((>`..`.><((((>

    "People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they
    just like to pee a lot." --Capitol Brewery

  14. #14
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Welcome to the forum, Mr. Bow. I see you are mostly a lurker. Perhaps you should come out from behind your name and participate more often. At any rate..............Game On!
    You didn't do a good job of reading and interpreting my post. The failure of the 22C proposal had nothing to do with my using it as an example. It was the change in Dept reasoning from AC meeting to Board meeting that brought that proposal to my attention and why I used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tundrabow View Post
    Martentrapper...Why all the whining!!
    Did anyone from Nome give public testimony on 22C brown bear proposal?? If there isn't public comment and ADFG has the floor then Board Members have nothing to go by.
    The comment period was the very first day and one half. Testifiers only have 5 minute each. I could have brought 20 people to testify on any one proposal. The dept would have had the whole next day to prepare a counter reply to any statements made. The Dept also has an almost unlimited time to discuss each proposal before the Board.
    The Board did have the unanimous support of this proposal by the local AC to use as a reference.
    I'm going to assume your a Nome res and know, or know how to find, my phone number. Care to discuss this directly?
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  15. #15
    Member MARV1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Kotlik
    Posts
    640

    Default

    Great to meet you there Mike, along with others that were in attendance. Yes, heck of a learning experience it was. And yes, F&G members have all the time to sway the BoG the way they want to sway them. Public testimony almost immediately gets knocked to the curb. Was a great overall meeting.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

  16. #16
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    the entire process was like that for south centrial last spring.....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    7

    Default

    nope, I read you message right. To introduce myself I'll admit I'm mostly a "Lurker" and pipe up when need be. Second, I have been to Nome twice in the past 5 years. I do attend board of game meetings here, as general public, in Anchorage which is a completely different experience. I'm quite familiar with how the public testimony works, been there done that.

    I too have wondered about the counter replies once testimony is given and have mentioned it to some people that seem to be high up in the process. Their biologist presentation of info that is shown to us or the table is in the books and can not be changed. soooo....all the mingling at breaks is where the action is.

    You should have brought those 20 friends of yours in...would have made a difference....bummer but those are lessons learned.

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Welcome to the forum, Mr. Bow. I see you are mostly a lurker. Perhaps you should come out from behind your name and participate more often. At any rate..............Game On!
    You didn't do a good job of reading and interpreting my post. The failure of the 22C proposal had nothing to do with my using it as an example. It was the change in Dept reasoning from AC meeting to Board meeting that brought that proposal to my attention and why I used it.



    The comment period was the very first day and one half. Testifiers only have 5 minute each. I could have brought 20 people to testify on any one proposal. The dept would have had the whole next day to prepare a counter reply to any statements made. The Dept also has an almost unlimited time to discuss each proposal before the Board.
    The Board did have the unanimous support of this proposal by the local AC to use as a reference.
    I'm going to assume your a Nome res and know, or know how to find, my phone number. Care to discuss this directly?

  18. #18

    Default

    Certainly helps if well written (factual) testimony if provided by the published deadline. It is provided to all the board members and gives them time for review and better prepared to ask follow up questions.
    Joe (Ak)

  19. #19
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Fairbanks, Ak.
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tundrabow View Post
    Their biologist presentation of info that is shown to us or the table is in the books and can not be changed. soooo....all the mingling at breaks is where the action is.
    Only partially true. While the "written" prep by the staff may not be changeable, I watched while verbal additions were added. Questions by the Board add additional opportunity for staff. Public members don't get to turn to subsistence division or DPS for help. The opportunity to present information that the dept cannot refute, or blow smoke over, is extremely limited.
    The breaks are definitely the main chance for the public to make progress

    Come get an Ox Marv. I just bought a new snogo.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  20. #20
    Member MARV1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Kotlik
    Posts
    640

    Default

    That would be great to do someday Mike. Plus some fur hunting would be in the works.
    What did you buy now? I'm just fixing up my '08 600RMK 144", getting ready for the season here.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •