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Thread: .458 Express

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    Member Nukalpiaq's Avatar
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    Default .458 Express

    Another interesting .458 class cartridge, see weblink:

    http://458express.com/

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nukalpiaq View Post
    Another interesting .458 class cartridge, see weblink:

    http://458express.com/
    I am not impressed nor do I think it will over take anything but I hope they succeed in maintaining their business, I hope it goes well for them.

    And for Dave Cambell's comment, "I've got a rifle and cartridge combination that I would walk straight up to the gates of hell with, shout at the devil and I know that I would come back home..." might just come back to bit him.

    It does not take much in a critical moment of a hunt and all that can happen in a moment, which could cause circumstances to go south, creating just enough variables to cause his shot on a mean big animal to allow him to actually meet the devil. Then it won't matter how much he shouts, no one will hear. NO SUCH THING AS THE ANSWER TO ALL THINGS IN A GIVEN CARTRIDGE - I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH YOU LOVE THE TRUST OR THRILL IT GIVES YOU.

    Good shot placement out of most of the other 458's will more than fill the bill and to think this new 458 is the next best thing to sliced bread is exaggerated enthusiasm and only time will tell if it is the best thing to spread your butter on.
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Default

    Notice he leaves out the Weatherby. One more cartrage to fill a hole thats not there

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    I do not know much about the 458 calibers but I really don't see what this round gains in a bolt action. In a single or double I can see the longer case with a longer throat allowing bullets to be seated out farther leading to more case capacity, and a benefit. However, in a bolt gun the COAL will be determined by the magazine, so I fail to see how having a longer case will help at all. The capacity will still be the same as the lott when loaded to the same length. If anything I would think the longer case would lead to problems finding bullets with a usable crimp grove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    I do not know much about the 458 calibers but I really don't see what this round gains in a bolt action. In a single or double I can see the longer case with a longer throat allowing bullets to be seated out farther leading to more case capacity, and a benefit. However, in a bolt gun the COAL will be determined by the magazine, so I fail to see how having a longer case will help at all. The capacity will still be the same as the lott when loaded to the same length. If anything I would think the longer case would lead to problems finding bullets with a usable crimp grove.
    He is using it in actions that are longer than needed for the Lott so the COL can be longer. From what I gather he is not really trying to gain too much performance over the Lott, but rather to get the performance with less pressure. In hot environments the heat will cause high pressure rounds to experience difficult extraction, which is part of the reason a lot of the old NE cartridges have so much unused case capacity, to keep the pressure down to ensure positive extraction in the tropical climates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    He is using it in actions that are longer than needed for the Lott so the COL can be longer. From what I gather he is not really trying to gain too much performance over the Lott, but rather to get the performance with less pressure. In hot environments the heat will cause high pressure rounds to experience difficult extraction, which is part of the reason a lot of the old NE cartridges have so much unused case capacity, to keep the pressure down to ensure positive extraction in the tropical climates.
    That makes sense. I assumed that the Lott was already running at a magnum COL and that there would not be room to go longer in a magnum action.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Yep 375H&H lenght action

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    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    That makes sense. I assumed that the Lott was already running at a magnum COL and that there would not be room to go longer in a magnum action.
    The Lott is using the same COL as the long magnums IE 375 H&H, but the action he speaks of using, the Brno ZKK has a pretty spacious magazine box. The long box allows the bullets to be seated out further thereby making use of the longer case.

  9. #9

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    While never one to bash someone's dreams of a new cartridge....what exactly is the cartridge going to do that a 460 Weatherby won't already???

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    Default Standard action

    Performance wise - nothing.

    From a practical standpoint it uses a standard action and you can use basic brass for most loads instead of the much higher priced Weatherby stuff. You can also shoot the .458 Win and .458 Lott if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by theONE73 View Post
    While never one to bash someone's dreams of a new cartridge....what exactly is the cartridge going to do that a 460 Weatherby won't already???
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  11. #11

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    Saw a beautiful Mauser custom in 460Wby and the brass is cheaper than the 458Express and the 460Wby will out perform the 458Express. Performance wise the 458Express is not as good as the 460Wby across the board of bullets used in the 458 caliber. It fills a hole that is not there!!!!!!!!! But I guess it makes the Africans proud of finally getting close to the 460Wby in a production 45 caliber rifle. I have been there twice to hunt and they don't like the Mark V Weatherby but you put a Weatherby cartridge in a control feed action and their argument is gone. Oh yeah! If recoil is a problem and this 458Express is suppose to be better by having less, one might not need to use ANY 458 cartridge if you can't handle the recoil.
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Saw a beautiful Mauser custom in 460Wby and the brass is cheaper than the 458Express and the 460Wby will out perform the 458Express. Performance wise the 458Express is not as good as the 460Wby across the board of bullets used in the 458 caliber. It fills a hole that is not there!!!!!!!!! But I guess it makes the Africans proud of finally getting close to the 460Wby in a production 45 caliber rifle. I have been there twice to hunt and they don't like the Mark V Weatherby but you put a Weatherby cartridge in a control feed action and their argument is gone. Oh yeah! If recoil is a problem and this 458Express is suppose to be better by having less, one might not need to use ANY 458 cartridge if you can't handle the recoil.
    Good points all beartooth...

    First off let me say I have never been to Africa, but I have checked into extensively and plan on going at some point. I also have friends that have hunted there extensively.

    From my standpoint there is NOTHING inexpensive about Africa so any arguments about ammo and/or component prices don't carry a lot of weight.

    As for the ability to fire 458 Winchester and or Lott rounds I thought the point was they were woefully inadequate and or dangerous?

    I just don't see the purpose of the round, but if others do who am I to rain on their parade

  13. #13

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    458Express brass is over 10.00 a piece and 460Wby brass is 3.15 a piece
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    I do not know much about the 458 calibers but I really don't see what this round gains in a bolt action. In a single or double I can see the longer case with a longer throat allowing bullets to be seated out farther leading to more case capacity, and a benefit. However, in a bolt gun the COAL will be determined by the magazine, so I fail to see how having a longer case will help at all. The capacity will still be the same as the lott when loaded to the same length. If anything I would think the longer case would lead to problems finding bullets with a usable crimp grove.
    It doesn't gain anything in a double. For starters doubles are set up for rather moderate velocities. Typicaly a 480 or 500 grain .458 bullet at 2150fps. Secondly it's likely rimless and rimless cartridges in doubles although doable aren't the best idea. Kid probaly has it right although it's not like anyone has been having problems with case extraction with the .458s. As someone else said this is filling a hole that didn't exist.

    Brett

    Brett

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Saw a beautiful Mauser custom in 460Wby and the brass is cheaper than the 458Express and the 460Wby will out perform the 458Express. Performance wise the 458Express is not as good as the 460Wby across the board of bullets used in the 458 caliber. It fills a hole that is not there!!!!!!!!! But I guess it makes the Africans proud of finally getting close to the 460Wby in a production 45 caliber rifle. I have been there twice to hunt and they don't like the Mark V Weatherby but you put a Weatherby cartridge in a control feed action and their argument is gone. Oh yeah! If recoil is a problem and this 458Express is suppose to be better by having less, one might not need to use ANY 458 cartridge if you can't handle the recoil.
    Just get a .450 or better yet a .450 no2!!!

    Brett

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    Performance wise it offers nothing over the 460 Wby. But some will argue the 460 pushes bullets to fast and that the ideal velocity for the big .45's is around 2,200 fps anyhow. But most actions (including Weatherbys) will only hold two down for the .460 (same for the .378)

    Agree with most of you this round is kinda useless. See no reason to get a huge action at a bigger expense when you can just use a standard long action from a Win 70 or Rem 700 for a Lott. Few people have a need for these type of rounds anyhow. Want, yes, Need, nope.

    Might as well just buy a big double and be done with it. They are so fricking cool to shoot!
    Tennessee

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Performance wise it offers nothing over the 460 Wby. But some will argue the 460 pushes bullets to fast and that the ideal velocity for the big .45's is around 2,200 fps anyhow. But most actions (including Weatherbys) will only hold two down for the .460 (same for the .378)

    Agree with most of you this round is kinda useless. See no reason to get a huge action at a bigger expense when you can just use a standard long action from a Win 70 or Rem 700 for a Lott. Few people have a need for these type of rounds anyhow. Want, yes, Need, nope.

    Might as well just buy a big double and be done with it. They are so fricking cool to shoot!
    Yes, now that makes since because a big double is cool and it is for the close fast stuff. Point well made.
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    Velocity is not the only consideration in creating a new cartridge. While you can load other cartridges to this velocity level it seems that the design fills a niche, or at least a perceived niche, in hunting cartridges for Africa. I believe this has come about in South Africa and so the cost comparison is not 1 to 1 when we consider brass prices and such. While I am not going to rush out and buy a 458 Express, I do enjoy contemplating the same kinds of questions these men considered. I also recognize that in many shooting disciplines it has been guys like these that have paved the way for the average hunter and the rifles he uses. It probably will not take the shooting world by storm, but then neither has any of the big bore rounds. Some DGR calibers are more popular than others, but none are popular like the '06 or good ole "thutty-thutty." The real need for such a gun is actually quite small so its market share will never be comparable to "smaller" rounds. It may never be more than a South African novelty, but it's an interesting novelty to me.

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    I can see a bit af favouritism here because it seems like some people has the "mine is faster than your's" attitude!? I think most of you are missing the point. Google "458 express" and go to www.458express.com and read the story behind the development of the 458 Express. Then read it again and understand the point.

    It was never meant to compete with existing calibers i.e: 460 Weatherby, 450 Watts and Ackleys and NE etc. It was a "cheap" but effective solution to a cartridge (not caliber) that didn't perform well and almost cost a man his life. My 458 Express is a conversion from a 458 win mag with a Zkk 602 action with a long enough magazine to accomodate an Express. (A bonus is a 5 cartringe magazine! When in trouble, you can stand your ground for quite a while.) The conversion cost met ZAR 1000, equivilant to USD 134. That includes all the work and proofing by the authorities! Cases in South Africa cost ZAR 10-12 equivilent te USD 1.3 -1.5 compared to ZAR of 35-45 (USD 6-8) for 460 Weatherby cases. (Someone in the US is ripping you off.) It brought the velocity up from 2000 fps to 2300 fps. I can shoot with 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott and 458 Express ammunition!

    Hunting the packiderms (thick skinned) dangerous game in Africa needs a heavy, premium bullet at moderate (2200 -2300 fps) velocity for good, straight line penetration. The high velocity of bullets fired from most of the Weatherbies (2500-2700 fps) tends to break up the bullet on impact and if intact, change direction as soon as it hit bone. (A cape buffalo skin is up to an inch thick at places and a lion strugles to cut trough it with his claws and teeth; though nothing to compare to an elephant!).

    Not everyone with a 458 Win Mag who wants a bit faster bullet for good penetration on a packiderm, can afford a 450 or 470 double but can afford a convertion that will bring their rifles cartridge performance up to speed with those above. I haven't hunt with the 460 W and would like to try it one day, so I am not going to degrade it.

    As is said: Different Horses for different couses.
    Last edited by Jaco Z; 04-05-2010 at 01:01. Reason: Missed a word

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    Jaco,

    it is clear that most people did not take the time to read about the 458 Express (www.458express.com) I want to thank you for your comments and I do agree fully with you. Nobody did try to compare it to the 460 Weatherby - it is not in the same class, and how would we convert several hundred 458 Win mag ranger rifles. I do now even want tro go into logistics about getting 460 Weatherby brass in Southern Africa!!!

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