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Thread: AK Bonus Pts

  1. #1

    Default AK Bonus Pts

    I am pretty sure I read a post a while back in regard to the AF&G shooting down the thought of a pref pt system. I just received a letter in today's mail from the AF&G stating that they are starting a new bonus pt system for specific drawing hunts that have been adopted by the board of game, but the system for implementation is still being developed. It says the system will be instituted in fugure years. I'm curious if anyone knows anything about this?

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    oh well yeah if unit 13 you apply for unit 13 bou, or delta bison.. you have to follow the rules now. you get a point if you apply.. you loose them all if you don't and if drawn your not allowed to be drawn again for so many years... but if you dont apply you get no points

    in short.. the state has found a way to get you to pay for a draw and keep you paying when your not allowed to hunt it any way.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  3. #3

    Angry

    The guy I spoke with today, said the program was to be implemented statewide eventually, but for right now they are bringing in a couple areas at a time, starting with the Road Connected Areas. He thought the entire road connected areas, to include the Haulroad should be in place in three years and statewide within five years.
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    The guy I spoke with today, said the program was to be implemented statewide eventually, but for right now they are bringing in a couple areas at a time, starting with the Road Connected Areas. He thought the entire road connected areas, to include the Haulroad should be in place in three years and statewide within five years.
    Res,

    That is terrible news IMO. Oh well, I guess it was only a matter of time the state figured out how to generate more $$$ given through this bonus point system over the random draw. Atleast the guys who wanted the bonus point system will be happy.

  5. #5

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska_Lanche View Post
    Res,

    That is terrible news IMO. Oh well, I guess it was only a matter of time the state figured out how to generate more $$$ given through this bonus point system over the random draw. Atleast the guys who wanted the bonus point system will be happy.
    Yup,
    We can only hope that it gets mired up and bogged down in it's own form of Beauracracy. Here's hoping that the wheels of govt get slowed. But we all knew it was coming. Just didn't know how fast. While we sleep others are busy figuring out how they can bite the hand that feeds them.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  6. #6

    Default

    I'm curious as to why one wouldn't want a bonus point system? I understand that it would give an advantage to the guy that has lived in AK his entire life putting in for the same hunt every year over the guy that just moves up, gains residency then puts in for a draw but shouldn't that be the reward for the time and money he has spent in AK? Not trying to start a debate, I just would like to hear the cons to better educate myself. Thanks

  7. #7

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Hewey 260 View Post
    I'm curious as to why one wouldn't want a bonus point system? I understand that it would give an advantage to the guy that has lived in AK his entire life putting in for the same hunt every year over the guy that just moves up, gains residency then puts in for a draw but shouldn't that be the reward for the time and money he has spent in AK? Not trying to start a debate, I just would like to hear the cons to better educate myself. Thanks
    IMO,
    It is merely an ill concieved extension of the Tier II System, only you gotta pay to play and at least under Tier II, you don't have to pay to get hammered. Having to pay for it, just seems to make it somehow....well, worse and it hurts more.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  8. #8
    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hewey 260 View Post
    I'm curious as to why one wouldn't want a bonus point system? I understand that it would give an advantage to the guy that has lived in AK his entire life putting in for the same hunt every year over the guy that just moves up, gains residency then puts in for a draw but shouldn't that be the reward for the time and money he has spent in AK? Not trying to start a debate, I just would like to hear the cons to better educate myself. Thanks

    Under the standard drawing system everyone has the same chance of being drawn every year. That means for some hunts you could be drawn more than once within a short period of time. Under a preference point system you will be guaranteed not to draw until you have enough points. In some states in the lower 48 this could be 2 to 10 or more years of applying and paying to apply before you ever draw. Under the current Alaska system you could draw the first time out. That is the difference.

    This is another move to benefit the guided non-resident who will only hunt up here once or twice in his lifetime, it only hurts the die hard resident who hunts every year. I know Phil will be unhappy to hear this non-resident bashing but so be it.

  9. #9
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    In addition to what Chisana writes, it also discourages new hunters and young hunters from getting involved. I have a 10 year old nephew that cannot wait until next week when we get to sit down and pick out which hunts to apply for next year. Under a bonus point system he would have very little chance of winning a tag. Most 10 year olds aren't going to be very encouraged to keep at it when they realize they likely won't get to hunt a permit area for a guaranteed 10+ years.

    There can be no more fair system than a random draw.

  10. #10
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    Default Bonus points

    It also ensures in some hard to draw hunts with low odds, say less than 2% drawing chance, that most successful applicants will be too old for the hunt by the time they are drawn.

    It will also lower the odds for everyone in the draw, because people will be putting in just to get preference points.....to play the game.

    The only way to get the State's attention is to boycott the drawings. The less money the state makes off them, the less they will like the idea.

    It's all about money to the State. In a State with the resources of Alaska, it's a sad thing to see them resort to this gimmick.
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  11. #11
    Member Milo's Avatar
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    Thumbs down evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Hewey 260 View Post
    I'm curious as to why one wouldn't want a bonus point system? I understand that it would give an advantage to the guy that has lived in AK his entire life putting in for the same hunt every year over the guy that just moves up, gains residency then puts in for a draw but shouldn't that be the reward for the time and money he has spent in AK? Not trying to start a debate, I just would like to hear the cons to better educate myself. Thanks
    In states where all the tags are given out in a preference drawing, it makes some tags a once in a lifetime or never in your lifetime draw.

    Example 1: 11,000 people applied for DI403 which gave out 90 tags. Once you draw the tag, miss the application period, or if you moved to Alaska one year too late, then you have 10910 people with one more point than you. Sure some of those people will drop out or die from H1N1, but basically if you miss a year you have zero chance drawing ever. Even if 1000 people drop out, your odds of drawing next year only increase from .8% to .9%.

    Example 2:
    In my case I have been buying Colorado elk points for 10 years and every year the tag I want takes 1 or 2 more point than I have. I started applying at age 32 and I will probably be 46 or 47 when I draw. It would be foolish for me to start buying in on that tag again because I'll be in my mid 60's if I ever draw again.

    Example 3:
    Fish and Game Departments change the rules mid-stream. You buy points for several years and then they cancel the hunt, further restrict the hunt or raise the cost. I purchased 1 bighorn sheep point in WY when the point cost $7 and the tag cost $1500. I figured I could bite the bullet on the tag price for a sheep once in my life. The very next year they raised the preference point to $100 and the tag to $2000. How many points are you going to buy for $100 -- zero for me.


    Where it works:
    Preference points would work well on tags like Afognak Elk where your odds are 30 - 40%. You buy a point for a couple years, then you KNOW that you will draw the tag and you can plan accordingly. It guarantees everybody a turn even if you are chronically unlucky. Trouble is, nobody is complaining because they can't draw these tags. The complaint is about not being able to draw TMA sheep and Delta bison.


    If ADFG is smart, they will split the available tags -- some into a preference drawing and some into a random drawing. That way they will keep sucking me into donating. The bottom line is that you are going to have to pay to play so make sure you buy points for every species and buy them for your kids too. Or don't buy them and then I'm one point ahead of you!



    jmho, feel free to tell me where my head is ;D

  12. #12

    Default

    Very good points and I appreciate the feedback.

    The only point system I'm familar with is Montana's which I viewed as being a fair system and correct me here if I''ve got it wrong. Every year that you put in you get a point or another name in the draw hat so to speak. So if I put in for five years I would get five names in the hat and the guy that put in for 1 year gets one name in the hat. Both of us can draw but obviously I with 5 names in the hat have better odds. Once I draw I start over. It's still a random draw but one has better odds.

    Is this the type of system Alaska is moving towards and am I understanding the system right?

    Thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate the shared views.

  13. #13

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    The point system was approved by the Board of Game, not Fish and Game. Any system that allows points to accrue with time will discriminate against new and young hunters, and those with limited funds. When you consider that the number of hunters declines each year, and that we try to bring new (especially young) hunters into our ranks, why should we adopt any point system that will handicap them? A point system is a very selfish approach to the problem of limited entry hunts. It only benefits those with the money to spend year after year on applications. I just can not believe that members of the hunting community are so willing to run over young hunters in the pursuit of a tag. It is really sad.

    unk

  14. #14
    Member Milo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unk View Post
    The point system was approved by the Board of Game, not Fish and Game. Any system that allows points to accrue with time will discriminate against new and young hunters, and those with limited funds. When you consider that the number of hunters declines each year, and that we try to bring new (especially young) hunters into our ranks, why should we adopt any point system that will handicap them? A point system is a very selfish approach to the problem of limited entry hunts. It only benefits those with the money to spend year after year on applications. I just can not believe that members of the hunting community are so willing to run over young hunters in the pursuit of a tag. It is really sad.

    unk
    Well said.


    Anyone who wants to see something that will turn their stomach should research the Maine Moose drawing permit. Bonus points, multiple chances for money, subpermittees and permit swapping. They got it all! Those are very coveted tags in that state with kill rates in 80 - 90%, but it you have money then you can hunt moose every year. It is truely unbelievable.

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    Exclamation Maine Moose

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Anyone who wants to see something that will turn their stomach should research the Maine Moose drawing permit. Bonus points, multiple chances for money, subpermittees and permit swapping. They got it all! Those are very coveted tags in that state with kill rates in 80 - 90%, but it you have money then you can hunt moose every year. It is truely unbelievable.
    I wanted to see what you meant, so I did look up Maine's subpermittee, and tag swapping rules and methods. I wouldn't have believed that big game drawing rules could get that bad; maybe we can avoid such an awful fate here? I hope so. Thanks for the informative post.

  16. #16
    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I wanted to see what you meant, so I did look up Maine's subpermittee, and tag swapping rules and methods. I wouldn't have believed that big game drawing rules could get that bad; maybe we can avoid such an awful fate here? I hope so. Thanks for the informative post.

    You aint kiddin! My mother drew a moose permit one yr. and some "Flat Landah" offered some big big money to use her tag.........she declined and gave him a few packages of meat.

    Makes me glad I'm an Alaskan Res for life............don't have to deal with drawings anymore if I don't want to.

  17. #17

    Default Pref pt vs bonus pt

    According to the letter I received from AF&G they said they will be implimenting a bonus pt system. Every bonus pt system I have seen gives everyone (people just staring out applying as well as guys that have applied for years) the chance to draw tags. They guys that apply the longest have the best chance. If someone draws a tag they go back to 0. This system seems like it is pretty fair to me.

    There are multiple types of pref and bonus pt systems and each state is a little different. Colo has a pref pt system for deer, elk, and antelope where the applicants with the highest pts draw the tags. I really don't like this system because as stated above young or new hunters don't have a chance of ever drawing high demand tags. For Colo moose where there are so few tags available and so many people applying it is set up differently. Your name is put in the hat the number of years you have applied. It gives the guys that have applied for more years a better chance of drawing tags.

    If I understand the res/nonres draw system correctly a bonus pt system may actually help Alaska residents draw odds...especially in really tough draw limited units. Currently residents are competing with nonresidents for these tags. Nonresidents must buy an $85 hunting license to apply each year and keep their bonus pts. Do you think this will eliminate a few nonres guys from applying? 10 years x $85 is $850 which is a chunk of change...especially in limited units where the odds of drawing are under 5%!

    I have kids and actually like the bonus pt system. It gives all applicants a chance to draw and the guys with more pts a little better chance to draw. Guys that have drawn tags have to go back to the end of the line rather than possibly drawing 2 tags in 2 years!

    To give you another example of how a pref pt/bonus pt system works well...I hadn't drawn a Wyoming elk tag for 25 years. Wyoming started a pt system 3 years ago and I have drawn 2 elk tags in 3 years. Believe me, it works...especially in units where the tag turn over rate is high!

    If Alaska impliments the right bonus pt system I think you guys may complain at first but if implimented the right pt system you will really like it!

  18. #18
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    I searched the Fish & Game web site and found the following in the BOG summary from the meeting period dated 2-27-09 to 3-9-09, CA means carried with amendments.

    CA 241 Create bonus points system for drawing permits. (Multiple changes including: Applies to sheep and bison permits; points double for unsuccessful applicants; and apply military exemptions as in current regulations for permit hunts.)

    Here is the link -
    http://www.boards.adfg.state.ak.us/g...dmap_mar09.pdf

  19. #19

    Thumbs down Points Systems

    I figure I've got about 2,000.00 invested in the state of Nevada trying to draw a resident archery elk and rifle goat tag with a bonus point system and I never did. Yet every year I new somebody who drew the tag with only 1 or 2 years applying. It's luck more than anything else and it doesn't work.

  20. #20
    Member Phil's Avatar
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    Default Nope

    I'm used to being bashed.

    Actually I don't fit in the catagory (guided & once in a lifetime) because I always do unguided & hunt most every year. I guess I just like to "stir the pot" once in a while. Gets boring otherwise and funny posts don't come along every day (Like some recent ones).

    It took me 11 or 12 years to draw a NH moose permit, I'm up to 9 preference points in WY for Shiras moose, and I don't even bother with Maine. BTW, the Shiras tag in WY is now around $1200 and will be going up again soon. Buying a preference point for moose in WY costs $75 per year (it used to cost $7).

    I support "bonus" points (NH moose) more than "preference" points (WY) and I suspect some kind of point system is the coming thing for Alaska. WY G & F found money success with elk and rapidly instituted preference points for pronghorn and mule deer. It does have one advantage - you can work the system and eventually be assured of drawing a tag in a "coveted" unit.

    REMEMBER - for any system devised by humans, there is a way to beat the system. And you can quote me on that.

    Speaking of upsetting people (Yes, I do enjoy that) - just this thought. There is still a mind-set among Alaskan residents that providing meat is what hunting is about (and I support that concept) - BUT what happens when the state finds out that a wild animal is MUCH more valuable for its trophy potential than for its meat. Then watch out.

    Phil Stewart
    Last edited by Phil; 10-28-2009 at 08:19. Reason: poor typing skills

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