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Thread: Guide Concession Programs

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    Default Guide Concession Programs

    What is the latest word of the proposed concession program for the guides/outfitters. Is it true that the proponent guides are wanting to be able to decide how many animals they can take out of their area? I heard that some of the guides who have been running wild for 20-30+ years want to continue to be able to take as many clients/trophies as they would like but think residents should be limited as to how many animals they can take. Is this true? I don't think guides should be able to take as many clients as they want and leave the residents of Alaska to limit themselves in the name of conservation. What gives?

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    All I can say, Flounder, is that we need the dues.


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    Exclamation Unjust Loss Of Liberty

    Chi,
    I don't get your response. Could you please expand the concept that I missed?

    Kent D,
    Good question and I hope somebody with current, up to date information will contribute.

    Two or three weeks ago I sent an Email to DNRs Mr Clark C. asking the same question...and he did not respond. He is a busy man running a busy team and by now my request for information is, I'm sure, buried under a steady stream of other messages. But he is the main source of info, I think, managing the entire concept, so I'll ask him again.

    And I still believe the DNR Guide Concession program, if implemented in the manner that had been "APHA advised and approved", IS AN UNJUST LOSS OF LIBERTY that will punist 150 to 200 hard working Alaskans who have never done anything wrong or illegal.

    Dennis Byrne
    AK TAGS

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    Chi,
    I don't get your response. Could you please expand the concept that I missed?

    Either watch the movie "Animal House" or google "Kent Dorfman".

    My comment was totally unrelated to the content of the OP, rather it has to do with the OP's username.

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    No horses died durning filming

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    No horses died durning filming
    My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.

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    Default Guide Concession Programs

    Quote Originally Posted by kent dorfman View Post
    What is the latest word of the proposed concession program for the guides/outfitters. Is it true that the proponent guides are wanting to be able to decide how many animals they can take out of their area? I heard that some of the guides who have been running wild for 20-30+ years want to continue to be able to take as many clients/trophies as they would like but think residents should be limited as to how many animals they can take. Is this true? I don't think guides should be able to take as many clients as they want and leave the residents of Alaska to limit themselves in the name of conservation. What gives?

    I get the "Animal House" deal, it is very clever. But from the sound of this proposed concession area deal, conservation issues in Alaska are becoming more like the tv show "Survivor"!!! I'll ask again....what is happening and who is pushing it?

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    Lightbulb DNR Concessions....

    Kent,
    ...whats happening, and who is pushing the DNR Concession deal...

    I hate to say this, but have you looked in the last year of threads? Threads titled State Welfare Program for guides, and New State Concession Lands..., and a few other threads can get you up to date on who is pushing for it, and why some of us-like myself-are objecting to it. While time comsuming, these old threads are the motherload of forum DNR Concession stuff if you will muddle through them.

    So whats happening now?
    I did get a brief message from the DNR point-man, Clark C., today. Not much is happening. No sarcasm intended there. But Clark indicated that the next block of information will probably come forward at the Dec BGCSB meeting in Anchorage. As I said before, Clark is a busy guy running a busy team. I think -but I don't really know- that this Guide Concession stuff falls under "additional duties as directed" for him and his crew.

    I also briefly correcponded with a BGCSB player, and he indicated that the DNR Guide Concession plan has fallen a wee bit behind their preferred schedule, and that guide-outfitters should "run your business as you usually would run it, through 2010 and now through 2011 also".

    This is the information that I have been able to extract...but, seriously, what do I know?
    Very few on the forum really attempted to keep up with this stuff while the BGCSB sub-committee were having their (sometimes) open-to-the-public teleconferrence meetings earlier this year.

    Nobody answered your pleas for information, because nobody knows nuthin.

    Kent, Let us know what you hear...if you hear anything from a reliable rumor source.

    And...based on what you have previously heard, where do you stand? On which side of the great-guide-divide do you stand?

    Dennis

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    Default Guide Concession Programs

    From what I have heard...It sounds like the guide industry is facing some of the same issues everyone else is with the stained economy. Some of the bigger outfits would like the State of Alaska to eliminate a bunch of guides so they can have a little more of the out-of-state money coming in from hunting. I have also heard that those guides want to continue to take as many clients/trophies as they can and leave the residents to limit themselves to promote conservation.
    Am I understanding it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kent dorfman View Post
    From what I have heard...It sounds like the guide industry is facing some of the same issues everyone else is with the stained economy. Some of the bigger outfits would like the State of Alaska to eliminate a bunch of guides so they can have a little more of the out-of-state money coming in from hunting. I have also heard that those guides want to continue to take as many clients/trophies as they can and leave the residents to limit themselves to promote conservation.
    Am I understanding it?
    "...Am I understanding it?" NO.
    Wonder why few responses to your initial posting? Perhaps, others, also sense you already "feel" you have the answers.

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    wantj43,

    Alright, someone to stick up for it. You say I don't understand it(in big red letters), ok. I am glad somebody finally knows what is going on. I have heard a lot about the proposal and nearly all of it is negative. The people who support it say things like "it is good for Alaska" or "we need to support it" but don't tell people why they should. If it is good for the state/resources, I am for it. I cannot believe somebody isn't sticking up for it by explaining the benefits. Why not? If "what I have heard" is wrong, what is right? It is not fair to just say "what is going around the coffee shops is wrong" or "what is going around the coffee shops is right", that is too easy and anybody can do that. By your response, you obviously understand the program and think it is good, don't politic the issue by replying simply "support it" or "don't hold up progress". Put some meat on the bones... Please continue with your explanation and get some people on board...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kent dorfman View Post
    wantj43,

    Alright, someone to stick up for it. You say I don't understand it(in big red letters), ok. I am glad somebody finally knows what is going on. I have heard a lot about the proposal and nearly all of it is negative. The people who support it say things like "it is good for Alaska" or "we need to support it" but don't tell people why they should. If it is good for the state/resources, I am for it. I cannot believe somebody isn't sticking up for it by explaining the benefits. Why not? If "what I have heard" is wrong, what is right? It is not fair to just say "what is going around the coffee shops is wrong" or "what is going around the coffee shops is right", that is too easy and anybody can do that. By your response, you obviously understand the program and think it is good, don't politic the issue by replying simply "support it" or "don't hold up progress". Put some meat on the bones... Please continue with your explanation and get some people on board...
    I've been quite specific in my previous responses regarding what I believe to be concerns regarding the program. If you are really that interested take the time to read previous threads regarding the issue.
    By your statement, "...you obviously understand the program and think it is good,..." you obvious have not a "clue" about my position.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Lightbulb Hello Kent...come back Dorfman

    Hello Mr Kent Dorfman,

    You have not responded to my PM inquiry.

    Nor have you continued the fascinating duel of wits and words here on the forum.

    By not responding, you are taking all the fun out of this!

    Hey man, you started this thread. And it has potential.

    Or did you obtain the info you were seeking from that motherload of archive factoids?

    Perhaps you obtained some new gems of information from DNR that you are keeping all to yourself?

    dennis

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    Alaska true adventure,

    I was hoping someone would explain the concesion program and clear up the issues of why some people are against it so feverishly and some people are for it. What I have heard in verbal conversations was nearly all negative but was wanting to gather more info to help me make my decision. I asked nicely for someone to explain things and Wantj43 fired back with a big red "no" that I don't understand it(hostility)??? Heck, I said that I didn't understand it in the first thread. I also asked Wantj43 to explain the good/bad parts of the program because if he know I don't understand it, he must understand it. I also asked him to put some meat on the bones and not just take the easy route and say he is 'for it' or 'against it' and he responded with no facts in support OR opposition to it. Because he didn't respond with any specifics, I didn't see any reason to quiz him any further.

    I thought by asking about the specifics, there would be a lot of people standing up for the merits if there were any. OR, there would have been a lot of people complaining about the program's faults if there were any. Without support or opposition, will it go through or will it not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kent dorfman View Post
    Alaska true adventure,

    I asked nicely for someone to explain things and Wantj43 fired back with a big red "no" that I don't understand it(hostility)??? Heck, I said that I didn't understand it in the first thread. I also asked Wantj43 to explain the good/bad parts of the program because if he know I don't understand it, he must understand it. I also asked him to put some meat on the bones and not just take the easy route and say he is 'for it' or 'against it' and he responded with no facts in support OR opposition to it. Because he didn't respond with any specifics, I didn't see any reason to quiz him any further.
    Some, myself included have outlined the program in previous posts. Take the time to read them. Though your posts certainly "suggest" you've already formed your conclusions.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    Some, myself included have outlined the program in previous posts. Take the time to read them. Though your posts certainly "suggest" you've already formed your conclusions.
    Joe (Ak)
    Can't find your outline,,,,,How about the readers digest version.

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    Default Old news...No new news...

    Hi Kent,
    Kent Dorfman. If we were on the same football team or members of the same tribe, I'm sure I would call you Dorf. It would just come natural. So, I'll call ya Dorf unless it really bugs ya.

    By now you have read the old archived threads State Welfare Program For Guides, New State Concession Hunting Land, Question For Alaska Hunting Guides, and others like Guide Rules Need Changing, ect.

    Many of those older forum conversations were started by the one and only (?) AVALANCHE. Wether we agreed with him or not, his contributions made everybody think long and hard about our guide-outfitter commercial services industry. He was the "straw that stirred the drink". Above all else, he always put the considerations of residence first, above the considerations and commercial consumption of the guide-outfitter industry. His insistance on remaining anonymous seemed to really bother some forum members. While his postings seemed to make many of us in this outdoor genxeration think and evaluate the state of the state of commercial guiding, he seemed to especially toast the patience of the new outdoor directory sheriff. Therefore, the new sheriff found a way to put AVALANCHE in the Management Forum jail, and to be never ever (?) be heard from again.
    Who was this instigator, AVALANCHE? I am not sure. Two or three of us had our suspicions. Some think he was certainly a high profile Alaskan politician, with a background in guiding. Others think he was a big-time guide-outfitter, with a knowledge of politics and super great computer skills.

    I am not sure who he is/was. I mean, do we ever really know anybody?
    So Dorf, if that really is your name, remaining ananymous will raise the suspicions of those that are suspicious of your Animal House name. Oh yeah, there are no Kent Dorfmans with any type of guide license ever in the state of AK.

    In addition the that motherload of information extracted from those old threads, I'll attempt to address some of your recent questions...right after supper.

    Really, really...Dennis

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    Default Q & a

    ...back after a quick supper...

    Dorfs qeustions...
    ...from post #1...
    I have never heard that the proponents, or those in favor of the concession deal, want to decide how many animals they can take out of an area. Frankly, haven't many-not all, but many- guide-outfitters always taken as many animals as they could take. Or haven't they very often- not always, but very often- taken as many clients as they possible could take within the starting and closing dates of any one species season? And of course within the available flying time? (...expected flying time taking in the consideration of weather delays.)
    (That responce should get some counter-responces. Please counter respond with complete, easy to read and interpret, sentences and thoughts.)

    I have never heard the proponents or the opponents discussing limits for resident hunters.

    ...from post #7...
    Who is pushing it?
    That is in the archives. But, of those that i have talked with....
    BGCSB Chair Paul Johnson is for it. He informed me during a 45 minute telephone conversation that he is in favor of it because former govenor Palin told him to.

    Former Gov Palin is for it because because the APHA Executive Director sold her on his idea.
    Dorf, if your not famialier with AK politics...that is the gov who quit.

    DNR Commissioner is for it. Perhaps he believes in it, or perhaps he was directed to be for it. Just think back to what happened to the Tropper Commiss, when the Tropper Commiss did not do as the Palin administration advised.

    BGCSB Chair established a Sub-Committee to explore the DNR Guide Concession deal. Many, but not all of those sub-committee members are for it. I spoke with only two members that were not for it, but never voiced opposition.

    Most of the APHA Board Of Directors are for it, I believe. But at least one has informed me of their opposition and non-believe in this plan, but will not voice opposition.

    Dorf, I do not know who else is in favor of it. I did receive 17 other calls during the sub-committee public teleconference meetings. None were for it. Nobody, except BGCSB Chair ever called me and expressed any support, or objected to my objections.

    ...post # 9...
    The implementation of this deal, as discussed months ago, will starve out, or will result in the immediate abortion of 150 to 250 or more of the newest contracting guide-outfitters is my estimation. And yes, the concession area winners will probably continue to take as many animals as they want to or as many as they can.

    ...post #14...

    Nobody knows nuthin new. 'Cause nuthin new has been provided to the public.
    But, I do believe the Dec BGCSB meeting in Anchorage will provide some new information. Possibly even some answers to your questions.
    Dorf, this is politics.
    Perhaps you, if you are in the great state of Alaska, can visit with Mr Clark C at the DRN building in Anchorage. He has in the past talked with a hundred plus of us. He is fair and honest and intelligent and a great hard working troop. If you desire to hear the APHA version of this then call the APHA Executive Director.

    If you learn anything, then please post it here. I would like to know whats going on also.
    If you come up with some credible information, then perhaps others will contribute to your thread....either PROPONENTS FOR IT or OPPONENTS AGAINST IT.

    And to the other four or five forum members who might give a care 'bout these DNR Guide Concession developments, please feel free to post and correct or update any of the tripe I have just written. (I suspect some responces now.)

    Personally, I would be most happy if DNR would allow me and my old framing hammer to pound in every nail in the Guide-Concession-Plan coffin. But frankly, Dorf, I do reluctantly believe that I have lost this battle and that the "concessin plan" will be implemented. And when it is implemented many, many honest and hard working "younger" businesses will be aborted from the guide-outfitter industry. Some will immediately be aborted if they do not "win" and concession areas. Others will quickly starve out if they do not "win" enough concession areas to sustain their businesses. (Side note- Alaska unemployment has hovered at around 8.4 to 8.6% for two years, with still no significant recovery in sight.)

    If AVALANCHE was here, with his computer skills and personal contacts, we would be better informed, I believe. But Dorf, this is all very political. What do I really know (about politics)?

    Time for desert...

    Dennis

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    Thanks Alaska TA,

    I am trying to come to a decision to be for it or against it. Thanks for stating some specifics for us to consider. I will put your thoughts into the equation and try to form my opinion.

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    Default Some uncovered emails on concession program

    As to why we may need the guide concession program, here is what Bobby Fithian had to say about it:

    From: Robert Fithian [mailto:rfithian@alaskaprohunter.org]
    Sent: Tuesday, December 02,2008 1:37 PM
    To: Nizich, Michael A (GOY)
    Subject: DNR Guide Concession Funding


    Mr. Mike Nizich
    Office of the Governor
    State of Alaska
    Juneau, Alaska


    Dear Mr. Nizich,


    As you know, with your help, development of the Guide Concession program under DNR is moving forward. This
    development represents a much needed tool for ADF&G Wildlife Conservation Division and the Board of Game
    to slow elimination of hunter opportunity for resident and non-resident hunters by implementation of drawing
    permit hunts and other types of closure. Currently, overcrowding of guides on State lands combined with
    decreasing wildlife populations is stimulating social disorder between hunter user groups and biological harm to
    our wildlife which leads to establishment of the restrictive drawing permit hunts. This is especially so in SouthCentral
    AK which is the venue for the next Board of Game meeting.


    It is vitally important that the Board of Game, the public and the guide industry know that the Guide
    Concession program has the support it needs to be established in a timely manner. DNR had requested a $200K
    budget request for this project that eventually came through at $50K. Mike, there needs to be additional budget
    support. Is there any way possible to develop an additional $1 OOK. This would cinch continued program
    development and not stalJ it at this critical juncture.


    BLM has come to the table now and is working towards a MMOU with the State to allow for the Guide Concession
    program to be implemented and managed on their lands by the State. This is a significant win for our State rights.

    There have been approximately 225 guide business opportunities developed on State lands. Minimum fee requirement for participation in these opportunities is going to be $1,000. per year. Additional remuneration will be
    part of the selection process but will not be scored over 15% of the total criteria pOints. What this shows is annual revenue generation of at least 225K and probably 3004QOK. The need for support now is for jumpstarting the
    program.

    Please help us if you can, or suggest our options at this time to develop additional funding

    Wishing You the Very Besl.
    Bobby Fithian

    12/8/2008


    Regarding whether or not DNR really wanted to be involved, these emails speak to that:

    From: Nizich, Michael A (GOV)
    Sent: Friday. December 05,20084:13 PM
    To: Crome, Cora J (GOV)

    Subject: RE: DNR Guide Concession Funding

    If it was up to DNR they probably would not do this at all. The Gov felt it was worthy for the good of the resource
    and the future for the guide industry. Bobby has to recognize the dilemma we face with the PPB going down every
    day. The 50 k will keep the effort going forward.


    From: Crome, Cora J (GOV)
    Sent: Friday, December 05,20082:57 PM
    To: Rehfeld, Karen J (GOV)
    Cc: Nlzlch, Michael A (GOV)
    Subject: RE: DNR Guide Concession Funding


    Thanks Karen -I appreciate this information and will reply to Bobby along these lines.

    Cora Crome
    Fisheries Policy Advisor
    Office of the Governor

    (907) 465 -3500

    Please note that my e-mail address has changed. The new address is cora.crome<{l;alaska.gov.

    From: Rehfeld, Karen J (GOV)
    Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:14 PM
    To: Crome, Cora J (GOV)
    Cc: Nizich, Michael A (GOV)


    '~"--Subject: RE: DNR Guide Concession Funding

    DNR is going to continue to move forward on this project with this modest amount of funding. We will assess in
    future years to evaluate if additional resources are necessary to continue the program. DNR did not
    include this item as one of their higher priorities. There are many items we were not able to fit in the
    budget at this time. KJR

    **************************************
    Karen J. Rehfeld, Director
    Office of Management & Budget
    465-3568

    karen.rehfeld@alaska.gov

    From: Crome, Cora J (GOV)
    Sent: Friday, December OS, 2008 11 :50 AM
    To: Rehfeld, Karen J (GOV)
    Subject: FIN: DNR Guide Concession Funding


    See the e-mail below expressing concern that the guide concession request has been funded at $50k rather than
    $200k. Is there anything I can share with Bobby about this? Are we phasing in funding? Did DNR express that



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