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Thread: What should we outlaw next?

  1. #1

    Default What should we outlaw next?

    Over the years I have heard countless claims by “so called” experts as to why something works or doesn’t work only to come to the sad fact at a latter date that the “Experts “ didn’t know beans about what they summarized to the world. Case in point, lawyers and politicians!

    I get so tired of hearing all of the hunting purists tout that only a certain caliber, type or restriction should be use or this should be banned because it is not primitive enough and is much to effective on the taking of game. That all inline muzzle loaders are some how evil and should be banned along with my model 1100 Remington shotgun because it fits the definition of an assault weapon. Give me a brake please.... Personally I think that golf clubs should be banned due to the inherent dangers and my poor score card, however, I am not out lobbying congress to get them banned.

    I am not sure what date of design constitutes primitive status, but to some here and maybe the BOG it matters. So, let us talk turkey for a few and delve into history for a moment.

    The inline muzzle loader came into modern use around 1800 with Swiss genius Pauly (1812) receiving the patten rights (on one of many) to a design that would latter be refined by Paul Mauser in 1868 to become ths most copied sporting weapon of all time, the bolt action rifle. http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/hi...zleloading.htm

    The sabot came into play in the early Fifteen Hundreds by the French and technically a round ball and patch could be, by “definition,” a sabot.

    All muzzle loaders should be restricted to a 54 caliber......except for hunting costal deer? Why?
    What other than the size of the bore makes a 54 more effective over a 50 or even a 45 for that matter? Is it just that you can stuff a slightly bigger rock down the bore of a 54 caliber that you would have to lengthen on a 50 caliber.... Is it okay to hunt in Alaska with a .530 round ball and patch out of my sling shot?!!! I would like to see some facts on this with logical discussion and not psychobabble. The kinetic energy arguments I have read on this are like trying to limit your choices on beer and cigarettes, all will get you drunk and the surgeon general says that you are likely to get cancer from smoking whatever pack is in your hands.

    Show me the supreme being who can shoot 1/4 inch groups out of his in line muzzle loader with open sights at 100 yards and I will bow down at their feet. I do not even try and sight my muzzy in at 100 yards with open sights, because the three inch dot is not legible at that distance for me. I sight in at 60 yards and adjust the drop with great and more accurate results. My best group ever is around three inches and averages around six inch groups at 100 yards depending if I swab on every shot or not. To say that in lines are more accurate than side locks are nothing more than sales pitch and urban legends in my opinion. My sidelock .45 Lyman is as accurate if not more than any in line I own or have ever shot. Again I ask what is fact and what is hypoBSfiction?

    Should we discuss the history of scopes on rifles and see at what date they come into use? Is it enough to say that in my opinion anything over a 2.5 power scope takes away from the mystique of the ML hunt, but maybe this issue would be better served by personal choice and not legal requirements. The human eye has an average of 1.5 power by nature.

    Present day rifles, and muzzle loaders are still governed by the laws of physics and more power to the hunter who gets every drop out of their equipment, they are the exception and not the rule.

    Should all muzzle loader hunters be required to get to and from the hunting site by foot or by horse because “so called” modern wheeled or propped transportation removes the primitive status from the special hunt? This would insure that the harvests numbers would be kept to a minimum.

    At what point do we legally stop hunting because it is no longer a privilege?

  2. #2
    Member fullkurl's Avatar
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    Default

    well said.

  3. #3
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    Default Apples to oranges

    Sorry, but I think your way off base on this one.

    I've been hunting for over 25 years, and take for instance when i started bow hunting I shot my first deer with a recurve. There is nothing wrong with compound bows for hunting, but it is a different. I have a Michigan State Archery championship to my name shooting free stlye limited, so I can compare the two. Long bows and recurse are primitive weapons. It would be like you comparing your model 1100 and to my 7 MM and betting me $1000 dollars you would out shoot me at 300 yards. It aint going to happen. Sorry but today's inliners with 209 primers, pyrodex pellets, and plastic sheathed rifled sabots are not the same as a flintlock. If you think they are the same, bet me some cash you can uot shot me using a flintlock, ball and patch angainst my in line muzzleloader. It is comparing apples to oranges. I really like the primitive seasons, but when you give people a inch they take a mile. You have to draw a line some were.


    Terry

  4. #4

    Default

    ADF&G makes no bones about it. Their intent is to limit hunters' range, and therefore it's a primitive weapon season. They don't give a hoot about inlines vs sidelocks, as there's really no difference when they are open-sighted. Even open-sighted ML's have an edge over archery used in the same season though, and scopes would throw that even further out of whack.

    The fluff from Tony Bridges and threatened lawsuits to allow scopes and require more power, was a blatant job of self-promotion and a potential wedge between hunting groups. We don't need it.

    I talked to ADF&G staff, and they said fine. Require scopes to be allowed in primitive weapon seasons, and they'd close all primitive weapon seasons. Then they'd only open archery seasons with no distinction between compound, recurve and long bows.

    The best bet is to refuse to support Bridges, refuse to buy products endorse by him to send a clear message to his sponsors, and support ADF&G's continued offering of primitive weapon seasons as they are.

    Scoped inlines are wonderful machines that extend the range and effectiveness of ML's to that of many modern cartridge rifles. Wonderful! Use them during the regular rifle season and be happy, but leave sleeping dogs lie on the primitive weapon seasons. We will lose a whole lot more than we gain in joining Tony's tigers.

  5. #5

    Default New Regulations for 2007

    Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) released new regulation governing hunting regulation for the 2007 hunting season. At the recommendation of professional hunter and wildlife outfitter Derk Limpstik of South Africa, new caliber and cartridge restrictions will be put in place. Due to the increase in bear and human fatalities, ADF&G has put a new minimum caliber requirement of .375 or larger for all hunters hunting in Alaska starting in 2007.

    Along with the caliber restriction will be added a new regulation requiring all hunters to use commercial manufactured ammunition due to the increase in personal injuries incurred from private reloaded ammunition.

    United States Fish and Wildlife Department have just mandated new hunting regulation for all Federal property within the boarders of Alaska. Due to the Endangered Species Act and the lack of Alaska’s cooperation in submitting a conforming wolf management plan, the United States Fish and Wildlife Department will reduce hunting pressure by approximately 50% requiring a new hunting special use permit to be able to hunt on federal property. Initial permit numbers will be capped at 60,000 permits on a lottery basis and will be distributed to lucky recipients at a cost of $ 50 per permit. All guides and transporters will need to apply for these land use permits at a cost of $200 with a cap at 1,500 and issued by a separate lottery. Alaska Wildlife officials have filled a federal injunction to stop this action stating: “ This Requirement will cause a total and complete meltdown of game management practices here in the state.”

    Terry,

    My post was never about questioning your abilities to shoot your 7mm at 300 yards. My post was to try and alert people that sometimes the un-informed get what they ask for. It only takes one stupid idea from a high ranking bureaucrat and the whole world could change over night and often these changes come without rime or reason and very little in put from the public or the people that they effect. You have your right to hunt with you flint lock, but you do not have the right to restrict my choice of legal muzzle loaders, including in lines. The above is only an hypothetical example of the type of bone headed regulations that are forced down hunters throats each and every year. Why limit our hunting methods and hunting opportunities just too prove a point. I will fight for your rights to hunt if you will fight for mine.

    Respectfully Bigmnt

  6. #6

    Default

    Inlines with scopes are welcome during the regular season. They're welcome without scopes during the primitive weapon seasons.

    If the Tony Bridges club sues to force them into the primitive weapon hunts, I'll spend my money to help ADF&G fight it. If Tony's Tigers win, I'll back ADF&G's decision to close the hunts or make them archery only.

    I own, shoot, hunt with and like my scoped inlines, but they're the furthest thing from the intent of restricting range in primitive weapon hunts. I'll knock the scope off or use one of my sidelocks for the primitive hunts, but I'm ready to spend big bucks and fight hard to keep the range limits imposed by iron sights.

    Now, are we having fun yet? Isn't it wonderful the way Tony's Tigers are such a unifiying influence?

  7. #7

    Default In lines

    Brown Bear,

    I do not have a problem with the way the muzzy regulations are now. However, I do have a problem with the notion that in lines should be removed from use in primitive hunts. Also I am willing to put big bucks up to stop stupid ideas such a limiting my choice of muzzy or caliber to .54 or bigger.

    As far as scopes are concerned? I can live without one on my muzzy. However with that said let me point out that my eyes are getting old and a no power reddot scope would be nice to line up with. Oh, but forgive me, this is an electronically aided device, heaven knows that no one in Alaska would ever use something electronic to aid in the taking of wildlife, I.E. range finders and inferred tracker, radios, cell phones...

    Again I ask what next should be outlawed?

    Respectfully, Bigmnt

  8. #8

    Default

    We agree on inlines, caliber and aging eyes. I'll be at the game board meetings any time scopes are proposed.

    I know what you mean about aging eyes, and in fact I gave up handgun hunting because I couldn't see the sights any more, rather than adding scopes.

    Here's a practical suggestion for open sights that has worked for my aging eyes: Put on a reveiver or peep sight and one of the fiberoptic front sights. A small aperture on the rear sight really clears up the front sight.

    For sidelocks, look for those with longer barrels, the longer the better. I've got a 42" fowler and the front sight is clear as a bell, but I get a double image of the front sight on a 32" barrel without the help of the peep sight.

  9. #9

    Default hmmmm....

    I might as well jump into the fray as well. My opinion is that if you are going to call it a "primitive weapons season" the weapons should be primitive. Shoot, I don't have a problem with limiting "primitive weapons" to flintlocks or even percussion sidelocks with round balls and longbows/recurves. I don't care about the binoculars, rangefinders, and other accessories. The issue is the weapon itself. There is no way you can call the 209 muzzleloaders made of synthetic and stainless steel primitive. Yes, they limit your range to less than that of modern rifles, but the that's beside the point in my mind. An open-sighted .44 mag revolver would limit your range to a similar distance, but that's hardly a primitive weapon. I think designs and materials should be the same as those used in yesteryear if you are going to call it a "primitive weapons season." That's the view from here.

  10. #10

    Default

    I agree in my personal choice of sidelocks for the primitive weapon seasons, even though I also own inlines- scoped and bare. I'm unwilling to ask ADF&G to push the legal definition that narrowly on behalf of primitive seasons however, because that's really an expression of my personal preferences. Their intent is to limit range while using a broad enough definition of allowable weapons in order for more hunters to participate.

    It's easy to nitpick the line after that, but the bigger point is for hunters to work together rather than finding yet another reason to divide and fight. We simply don't need any more of that if our numbers and sport are to persist.

    I'd happily support a handgun-only season in addition to the primitive weapon season rather than having a catfight in the litter box over whether or not modern handguns should also be allowed in the primitive weapon seasons. I hunted exclusively with handguns for 15 years and well know their capabilities and limitations, even if my aging eyes won't let me use one without a scope these days. My choice was to quit hangun hunting rather than start scoping revolvers. My choice, and I'm not saying it's valid for anyone else.

    If a handgun-only season is proposed, I have to guess the catfight in the litter box over definitions won't be any less intense than a question of scopes on muzzleloaders. It would boil down to ADF&G defining a goal such as restricting range or whatever, then radiating the regs out from there to try to accomplish those goals.

    Bottom line- These extra seasons are a big gift to hunters, and we should greatfully accept them as such. It would sure be a lot easier and cheaper for ADF&G simply to restrict all hunting to the regular seasons and can the special seasons. We should get behind their efforts to provide more hunting opportunities and quit urinating in each other's boots.

  11. #11
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    Primitive= Sticks and Stones.


    Not fancy contraptions that allow you to be further than 2 yards from your intended quarry.

  12. #12

    Smile Inline, Sminline

    When muzzleloading was sport and hunters used blackpowder and lead projectiles for big game is a by-gone era. Today we have, muzzle loaders which use smokeless powder, saboted bullets, magnafied optical sights, and in-line ignition. We had a phrase when I used to race cars,"you can't uninvent speed or make it go away".
    Just remember what effects one group effects everyone, like the Patriot ACT ( it affects us all good or bad). Watch what pocket or whose pocket the money goes in and you can tell which way the bullet will spin.
    I myself will hunt with my 54 cal. Browning Mountain Rifle, I like the nostalgia of that era. After all we are sportsmen, and uncertainty makes for sport and certainty makes for bordom. Thats why it's called hunting not killing.

  13. #13

    Default

    INterestingly enough I use both "modern" and "old" muzzleloaders.

    What I found interesting is that my 54 Renegade will shoot 1-1.5 inch 3 shot groups with iron sights and No Excuses 535 grain conicals all day long. Musket caps and real BP. I read all the folks saying they are not accurate as the newer ones. Its interesting thats about all the accuracy I get out of my 45 Encore also.

    With irons and my old REnegade in 54 its easy to make a killing shot on deer sized or larger game out to 200, just like in the old days, you simply must practice and know your weapon well.

    Not sure that I've said much here, but its input thats against the grain as to capabilities. I'm more more impressed by the man, rather than the tool.

    Jeff

  14. #14

    Smile Rifles

    I myself have both modern in-line as well as sidelock muzzle loading rifles. I enjoy the sport of shooting and just the warm fuzzy feeling of being out in the woods in a semi-primative atmosphere.
    I also used to shoot a recurve bow, but due to a car wreck I can no longer pull a recurve and hold it drawn. I now have to resort to using a compound bow. Not because I want to but I refuse to give up the time in the outdoors. Even carrying a modern bow in a primative area gives me an excuse to tell the wife bye and head for high country.

  15. #15

    Smile Rifles

    I myself have both modern in-line as well as sidelock muzzle loading rifles. I enjoy the sport of shooting and just the warm fuzzy feeling of being out in the woods in a semi-primative atmosphere.
    I also used to shoot a recurve bow, but due to a car wreck I can no longer pull a recurve and hold it drawn. I now have to resort to using a compound bow. Not because I want to but I refuse to give up the time in the outdoors. Even carrying a modern bow in a primative area gives me an excuse to tell the wife bye and head for high country.

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    Default Primitive rules

    I have given this a little thought and I believe the goal should be a clean kill, I think for that reason a scope should be allowed. I believe other than that the weapon should be the old type muzzle loaders for the primitive weapon season.
    If you allow the inline models you defeat the purpose of the special season, they are clearly closer to a modern rifle than a flint lock or cap lock. Their range is greater and their reliability against moisture is greater among many other advantages they offer. All these things defeat the purpose of the primitive arms season. This is not that hard guys use the inlines the rest of the year and get you one of the old style guns for the special season, and if you can mount a scope on it go ahead.
    The problem is you are looking at it as a restriction when really it is an extra season, more hunting time and a chance to try and challenge your hunting skills. It should be a little harder than the regular gun season,and their should be a limit to the equipment to handicap the hunter somewhat.
    Just my opinion!

  17. #17
    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duts View Post
    The problem is you are looking at it as a restriction when really it is an extra season, more hunting time and a chance to try and challenge your hunting skills. It should be a little harder than the regular gun season,and their should be a limit to the equipment to handicap the hunter somewhat.
    Just my opinion!
    This Sums it up! Great job explaining

    Scopes definatly cross the line.

    Id also say that the inlines cross the line too having shot a few with scopes. They are very accurate and easy to make accurate every time by having factory made powder charges, plastic sabots and aerodynamic bullets.

    However, since most people dont practice iron sight shooting often Im not gonna gripe about someone hunting with a inline with open sights, because probably that person is going to limit himself to 100 yards or less.

    But all this doesnt need to be said over and over. Duts said it right. Its a special season for a special weapon.

    What we really need to fight about is why there are not more muzzleloader seasons up here!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    This Sums it up! Great job explaining

    Scopes definatly cross the line.

    Id also say that the inlines cross the line too having shot a few with scopes. They are very accurate and easy to make accurate every time by having factory made powder charges, plastic sabots and aerodynamic bullets.

    However, since most people dont practice iron sight shooting often Im not gonna gripe about someone hunting with a inline with open sights, because probably that person is going to limit himself to 100 yards or less.

    But all this doesnt need to be said over and over. Duts said it right. Its a special season for a special weapon.

    What we really need to fight about is why there are not more muzzleloader seasons up here!
    I would have to agree witg Matt.We to put more into getting more muzzleloader hunts. Than fighting about inlines and scopes. We,ll that's my 2 cents

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    Default limit range

    What is the big deal about range limits?? are these hunts in urban areas?? If not why not use scopes if you like them or dont if you dont. I cant believe how hard it is for hunters to work together. The thing we need most is a quick clean kill period. If that means I need a scope and brownbear doesnt who cares!! If you want to use primitive that could mean different things to different people, why not just say flintlock or stickbow only, no pyrodex only blackpowder (the real thing). My son shoots a flintlock and a stickbow, i use an inline and a compound, what difference does it make??

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    Default Wht should we outlaw next?

    The basis behind a 'primitive weapon hunt', is that the weapon should be primitive. I think everyone agrees with that. As with everything else, progress gets involved and things change. At what point can a weapon no longer be classified as "primitive"?

    For example here in the lower 48, we can't get real blackpowder any longer. Dealers have to have an explosives license and a bunker to store it in. So we now are being forced to use one of the new sythetic powders. We use to be able to use Remington #11 caps, but you sure get a better ignition with the 209's.

    I have inlines that shoot both, and I have percussion rifles that I have only shot BP in. When my supply runs out, I suppose I'll have to change to the synthetic powder.

    Regulations for "muzzleloaders" (all lumped nto one catagory) vary. In Washington here are no powder restrictions. I like the 777 pellets for both 50 and 54 inlines. Some states do not allow the pellets. We can use fiber optics, some states do not allow them. I cannot use the 209 primer during any muzzleloader season, but can during a regular rifle season. I can also use a scope. The fiberoptics are great for tired eyes.

    Archery is a whole other matter. I personally believe the new bows with the ranging systems, silencers, balancers and the like are not what one could call primitive.

    My point being, back when the smokepoles were relied upon as a matter of life and death, there were no 'modern' appliances one could use. They seemd to do fine then. They were able to feed themselves and family and for the most part stay alive.

    Having a total of 10 blackpowder firearms, pistol and rifles, inline and traditional percussion, I prefer the old way. I like the challenge to the hunt and the primitive experiance. Knowing that my TC, Sharps or Sharon can drop and elk if I do my part, is the experiance I'm after. I also like the challenge of taking my Knight or Remington, mounting a scope and going after deer durig the regular season, knowing it's one shot, is also a challenge.

    I guess as I get older, its the challenge and not the kill. That's why it's hunting and not killing. With some of mine, under the right circumstances I could take a long shot. I could also use a centerfire. The stalk is part of the challenge. What sport is it to shoot an animal at nearly a quartermile?My 2 cents worth.

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