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Thread: Double walls,

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Default Double walls,

    The Insulation thread led me to this thought.

    Build a wall with a top and bottom plate, and stagger 2x4 studs at 16" on center, The inside studs on the inside are 16" o.c, the studs on the out side are 16" o.c. Install 3-1/2" on the outside wall, run your wiring, no drilling then add 6" on the inside. Works great, and all the inside insulation covers the outside studs so there is no way for the cold to transfer through.

    We did this in a few villages, but don't hear to much about it being done anymore. The cost is not that much more, and to me its the way to go.

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    I had this discussion with some one yesterday and drew up this sketch. Just for clarification the top and bottom plates are 2x6 or greater.

    thermal wall.jpg

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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Sorry mics, It was with a 2x8 top and bottom plates, ( that was supposed to be in the origanal post.)

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    Yep it works great! The several addions to my house have been staggered studding 2x4 on 2x8 plates. Besides giving you a thicker wall the method also allows easier winter construction as once studded and after the outside 31/2 of insulation the structure will hold heat.

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    I have to say this John, You dont want to try to heat the house with a layer on the outside and try to finish the inside without some kind of vapor barrior. You will build up frost so bad that it will soak up into the insulation that you installed, and defeat the purpose.

    I know that you are probably aware of this, but others are not.

    Just a note.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    The Insulation thread led me to this thought.

    Build a wall with a top and bottom plate, and stagger 2x4 studs at 16" on center, The inside studs on the inside are 16" o.c, the studs on the out side are 16" o.c. Install 3-1/2" on the outside wall, run your wiring, no drilling then add 6" on the inside. Works great, and all the inside insulation covers the outside studs so there is no way for the cold to transfer through.

    We did this in a few villages, but don't hear to much about it being done anymore. The cost is not that much more, and to me its the way to go.

    it is still a very common practice in your higher end homes built here in Fbk rock... the principal is that the wood transmits heat into the house... I have done a few and the upfront cost of labor and material was some higher then that of standard 2x8 walls... with the 8" R 32 in them.
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    The key words are " not that much more"

    Building a cabin, hauling it in by hand, 2x4s rather than 2x6s or 2x8s is a plus, and you can still get the same if not better product in the end.

    ( I was right there at your office today, but it looked a little busy. so I passed on the coffee, maybe next time. Who was the white truck? ) oh and your lights were on/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    The key words are " not that much more"

    Building a cabin, hauling it in by hand, 2x4s rather than 2x6s or 2x8s is a plus, and you can still get the same if not better product in the end.

    ( I was right there at your office today, but it looked a little busy. so I passed on the coffee, maybe next time. Who was the white truck? ) oh and your lights were on/
    there is a music teacher down stairs...

    light on cars running.. we run around a lot.
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    My father-in-law's house uses this concept using 2x12's as plates and staggered 2x6's for studs. He's still not sure if he recouped the extra expense, but man is that house easy to heat.

    I've discussed on other threads the concept of 4" of polystyrene foam on the outside of a 2x4 wall with R13 in the 2x4 wall. This concept is working really well in our area and I just supplied another house using this method.

    BTW, if you are using the double 2x4 style wall there is no reason you can't go 24" on center.
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    I should point out with this system, you really only need one top plate.

    You can build two seperate walls with one top plate, and one bottom plate, then put the wider plate on top to tie them together.

    Doug is right on the 24" centers if you are using something better than 1/2" on your outside walls. 1/2" or less you are going to get waves in your siding product. Correct me if I'm wrong Doug.

    Good luck all.

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    There is a hanger a guy built in Meadow Lakes using the staggered stud method. After the second year, he has studs twisting themselves right out of the walls. Not having them secured on both sides was not a good idea in his case. It was vapor barried properly, but the studs weren't dry enough and now the walls are sad. I think it is a mistake in some cases. I would never consider using 2x4's for this method, cause they are the worst for twisting after construction.
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    Skipper- I know several houses framed on 24" centers using 7/16 OSB and fibercement siding ...none show any issues with wavey siding. Now, vinyl might be different, but thankfully there are very few vinyl sided houses around here.
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    I remember staggered studs being used in partitions between units in multi-unit buildings, and between classrooms in schools, for reduced sound transmission through walls. As I recall they wove either glass or felt batts through those interior partitions, and they were very effective for sound control compared to conventional interior partition walls.

    You builder guys probably already knew that; even at my advanced years I am still the ten year old kid who hangs around a building site fascinated, trying to figure it all out. One of my grandpas was a millwright, which in those days meant machinist/blacksmith/welder/electrician/plumber/builder/steamfitter, etc. His grandson (that would be me), though first of the family to grad school and all that, barely knows the difference between a screwdriver and a nut driver (...at the hardware store, not the bar).

    My other grandpa used to grade lumber out of the kiln in a sawmill. His green blot on the board meant it went to the lumber yard, a red blot sent it back to the kiln room. Would metal studs be an option for those concerned about issues from twisting of "red dot" studs that wind up at the lumber yard?

    One of these days (not for a while, am traveling soon) I will post some pics and descriptions about an idea I had a couple of years ago to deal with water lines in a winter-use cabin. A retro-fit job that works and looks great, and with hardly any messing with existing partitions...

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    Question Vapor barrier

    How and where would you guys install the vapor barrier on the above described "staggered" wall?

    Sounds like an interesting idea. I am a little confused as to whether you would build one wall using a wider top and bottom or two seperate walls, then put additional 10" sole and top plates???

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    How and where would you guys install the vapor barrier on the above described "staggered" wall?
    the vapor barrier always goes on the warm side of the wall to eliminate introduction of warm moist air into the wall cavity. A minimum of 2/3 of the insulative value of the wall must be exterior to the barrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mics_54 View Post
    the vapor barrier always goes on the warm side of the wall to eliminate introduction of warm moist air into the wall cavity. A minimum of 2/3 of the insulative value of the wall must be exterior to the barrier.
    I understand this, but in and earlier post someone said to put vapor barrier on the exterior section, then continue working on the interior section in winter while it is warmer inside... I have never put two vapor barriers in a wall, wondering if it is a good idea or not? Me thinks not, but even I don't know everythign

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    Buck,

    I've done it both ways.

    The one thing that you have to think about is your openings. You can do two seperate walls and leave enough space for a plywood surrond, or you can build it in one piece (with what ever size plate you want) and use studs whatever the plate size is for the openings.

    If you are building it by youself it is eaiser to go with two seperate walls and put on whatever size top plate you desire, the bottom width of the walls is what ever you choose for the top plate.

    The beauty of it is, is that the only drilling for elec. is at the openings, and you have no air transfer.

    I've done a lot of them and would'nt woory about the for mentioned warpping. You might get a couple of studs that will warp before you get the vapor barrior on, just replace them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    There is a hanger a guy built in Meadow Lakes using the staggered stud method. After the second year, he has studs twisting themselves right out of the walls. Not having them secured on both sides was not a good idea in his case. It was vapor barried properly, but the studs weren't dry enough and now the walls are sad. I think it is a mistake in some cases. I would never consider using 2x4's for this method, cause they are the worst for twisting after construction.
    You got that right, we built a number of double wall houses around Fbks 25 yrs ago, they are great to heat, but the 2x4 studs can be a problem, not something that would instill a lawsuit, but 2x4's need to have some thing attached to both sides to keep from tweaking, probably worse w/ todays lumber.
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