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Thread: 460 Rowland

  1. #1

    Default 460 Rowland

    Looking at the ballistics of the 460 Rowland, I wonder about several aspects. The recoil is obviously going to be substantial, so I wonder about the longevity of a standard, even good quality frame to handle the battering it will take with such heavy loads, even with a stronger recoil spring and buffer. looking at the bullet weights vs velocity, it seems that the power is one step below the .44 mag and that the standard heavy loading is a 230 gr. bullet. Since the fairly recent hard cast wide flat nose bullets currently used in revolvers are the "ticket" for bear defense loads and even hunting loads in heavy caliber revolvers, could a 1911 be made to reliably feed such bullets, if cast at a proper weight for this cartridge, the lighter weights reducing the probability of full penetration. Understand, this is not a criticism of the cartridge, just an old handloaders curiosity.

  2. #2
    Member TWB's Avatar
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    Default

    Not sure if you've been here but this is a good read with a 2-Part handloading/Ballistics review.

    http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

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    http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

  3. #3

    Default Reloading

    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    Looking at the ballistics of the 460 Rowland, I wonder about several aspects. The recoil is obviously going to be substantial, so I wonder about the longevity of a standard, even good quality frame to handle the battering it will take with such heavy loads, even with a stronger recoil spring and buffer. looking at the bullet weights vs velocity, it seems that the power is one step below the .44 mag and that the standard heavy loading is a 230 gr. bullet. Since the fairly recent hard cast wide flat nose bullets currently used in revolvers are the "ticket" for bear defense loads and even hunting loads in heavy caliber revolvers, could a 1911 be made to reliably feed such bullets, if cast at a proper weight for this cartridge, the lighter weights reducing the probability of full penetration. Understand, this is not a criticism of the cartridge, just an old handloaders curiosity.
    There is some reloading data on the web for bullets up to 260 grns @ around 1100 FPS.
    Can't speak for everyone elses 1911 but mine will feed full wad cutters or empty cases by hand. Had it tuned up about 1993 by a custom smith before the new Kimbers and such were on the market. Clark could well answer your querrys on recoil battering of frames. ALL 1911's are NOT good candidates for 460 Rowland, that info is on Clarks site as well.
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  4. #4
    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Default Why not a glock 20

    With hardcast 230grn WFNGC @ 1140fps? Recoil is not bad, you feel it, but I just have a 20# spring. Glocks sit lower in the hand or have lower center of gravity, not near as jumpy as a Sig P229 in .40S&W I used to own. It doesn't need a comp. Not an expensive conversion. Plus ammo is available.

  5. #5

    Default No Glock

    Quote Originally Posted by akrstabout View Post
    With hardcast 230grn WFNGC @ 1140fps? Recoil is not bad, you feel it, but I just have a 20# spring. Glocks sit lower in the hand or have lower center of gravity, not near as jumpy as a Sig P229 in .40S&W I used to own. It doesn't need a comp. Not an expensive conversion. Plus ammo is available.
    The Glock 20 has a longer frame and a higher heel on the grip. When I grab it and point it at a target instinctively it's always pointing high. TOO many years with a 1911, I guess. YES, I can aim at the target and put the bullets where they go. But a well fitting firearm should point, just nearly like your finger.
    The 460 Pushes the same 230 grn bullet at 1350 Fps and can be loaded with 260 grn bullets (with factory ammo available and brass from Starline and Corbon).
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Warren, I've taken a pretty good look into the .460 Rowland, as good a look as I can without shooting one, and I don't believe that it's a replacement for the .44 mag.

    That said, I think it's pretty darn close. I've seen loads listed for 230 grain bullets at 1300 fps+. That's right on the heels of most 240 grain .44 mag loads.

    Then there's the greater number of rounds in the autoloaders and some of the autoloader pistols have the ability to convert to .22lr.

    Taken alltogether, I've thought a .460 Roland with a .22 conversion kit would make a nifty backwoods package. BUT, every time I start to save for one (.45-$600+, .460 conversion-$300 & .22 conversion-$300) something comes along and wipes out my savings!

    Oh well, someday.......

  7. #7

    Default YEP

    I don't think the 460 has the power or versatility of the 44 mag either! But it's sure in a conveinient package compared to a 4-6" Model 29. Shorter, flatter, lighter.
    If, as in the 1911 it only held 8 rounds I wouldn't consider that a major deterent to me as I figure that after the first 1 or 2 rounds the outcome is decided and 10 more rounds are just spares for next time If there is a next time.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by .338-06 View Post
    Taken alltogether, I've thought a .460 Roland with a .22 conversion kit would make a nifty backwoods package. BUT, every time I start to save for one (.45-$600+, .460 conversion-$300 & .22 conversion-$300) something comes along and wipes out my savings!

    Oh well, someday.......
    If an EAA will work (in other words we find a smith that will do it) it would be much cheaper than that. They are very well made and dependable, the only thing I don’t like about them is the lesser models have not had the sharp corners knocked off. The Elite model and up are as well finished a gun as Kimbers, just not the name repetition in the US. You can get a 45 EAA match and a 22 kit for it for about the price of just the gun in most other brands.

    The guns start at $385 new and a Match like I have is just $485. The Match has a longer barrel, single action trigger that is nice and crisp from the box, and extended controls. All the others are double/single action as far as I know.
    http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=117

    EAA conversion kits are $199 and are the complete slide and a mag, just pull one pin, change slide, insert pin and mag and shoot.
    http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=41

    I would like to buy a 45 conversion and get it converted to 460 Rowland to see what it’s like.
    Andy
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  9. #9

    Default 460

    I don't know a gunsmith who goes this conversion at present, or I would ask him personally if the EAA is a candidate for this conversion.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  10. #10

    Default 460 Rowlamd

    Here's my experience for what it's worth.
    With careful handloads the rowland can get just over 900 FPE with the hornady 230 grain FP.
    This is the same energy level I am able to get out of my 4 inch S&W 329. ie just over 900 FPE.
    So they are comparable in that instance.
    However it's easy to exceed these levels in a longer barreled ruger 44 mag and heavy bullets safely.

    The 460 rowland is the most sensitive cartridge I've loaded in over 30 years. So be careful approaching maximum loads.

    On the other hand it's the funnest magnum level handgun I've ever shot.

    JMHO

  11. #11

    Default

    I have a question or two about the Rowland 460 that has not been discussed yet. I like the idea of a light auto shooting a relatively powerful load. How is the ammo availability? From what I can gather it is a finicky load to get right. Are there any commmercial companies or reputable loaders producing cartridges for this application? What I have seen available is hollow point and "human intended" ammo, yet many inquiring folks, including myself would like to carry this round as a light bear backup firearm. Does anyone make a proven hardcast round or at least something in the 200-240 range with a decent meplat? If so, does it feed okay? I have a Glock 20 that will feed 230gr flat-nosed hardcasts all day without a problem so I know an auto will do it. A 220ish+ grain, .45 caliber with high velocity and a big flat point is something I'm interested in when I'm out on hikes. Anybody have any input?

  12. #12
    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Default

    Corbon, for one has two loadings at present.

  13. #13
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    Default Corbon

    Corbon actually loads no less than 4 different bullets for this cartridge. I have shot all 4 types of Corbon as well as some from another manufacturer, don't recall who. Corbon loads a 185 HP, a 230 HP, 255 Bonded Core, and 230 hardball. The 185's are obviously for 2 legged critters, the 230HP's seem to be loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet ( just a guess, but they look very similar), the 255 grainers are a Corbon bullet they make in house I believe and they have a very small hollow point and a rather thick jacket, also as their name implies I assume they are bonded, while the hardball is well hardball.

    I have never shot any game with any of these loads but I have fired quite a few of them and found anything from Corbon to be very accurate and reliable. I have fired the 230HP load into a bullet box covered with moose hide and filled with wet phone books, and I have to say I was impressed. The load in question penetrated the saame as WW 240HPs out of a 4in S&W 44 mag, and showed a much larger cavity, it penetrated about 2in less than WW 240 softpoints from the 44, and even more shockingly only about 3in maybe 3.5in less than the 310gr Garrett Hammerhead load at 1300fps. Now I am fully aware that no animal in the woods is full of wet newsprint but I consider it a fair media to compare the penetration of different bullets since they are all going into the same kind of media.

    So I guess you can take this however you want to, either the 460 Rowland is a pretty impressive caliber, 4in 44 magnums suck, or form your own opinion.

    Oh yea the bossman did shoot a couple of pretty nice sized alligators with the 460 from a 6in barreled Colt 1911 a couple of years back I'll have to ask him what load he used. Never shot a gator but assume they are pretty tough?

  14. #14

    Default

    Good info thanks.

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    Member AKsoldier's Avatar
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    I must have missed this when I posted my own question in the hangdun forum. I'm considering the conversion myself for a Hi-Cap Para. Here's a good review of the 460 Rowland by Taffin - he found that the 460 either equals or surpasses standard .44 mag from the same-length barrel:
    http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm

    Granted, there are longer barreled 44 mags that will out-perform the 460 handily. For me though, the benefit of the 460 Rowland is the ability to carry a smaller, less cumbersome 1911 and still have enough punch for bear. Especially considering I'll have 15 rounds before needing to reload.

    One other thing Taffin mentioned I thought was interesting - with the comp, he claimed perceived recoil was actually less than a standard 1911 with 45 ACP.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

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    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
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    Kid,

    Do you find you convert more polymer 45s to the Rowland w/o the brake or do you see more kits from Clark Custom Guns?

  17. #17
    Member AKsoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    Kid,

    Do you find you convert more polymer 45s to the Rowland w/o the brake or do you see more kits from Clark Custom Guns?
    Just FYI, according to CCG the compensator is necessary to prevent damage to the 1911. Might just be overcaution though.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

  18. #18
    Member The Kid's Avatar
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    We actually do way more polymer pistols then the 1911 types, although we do some of both. I think the main reason that we do more of the polymer guns is the cost, first off a decent 1911 costs twice what an XD does, then the fact that unless your 1911 is a Para you have to machine the frame and fitt the new BBl that is required while we do the conversion on the factory BBl on the XDs and M&Ps.
    As far as a comp being 100% nessicary I dont know if that has something to do with the fact that the Clark kit doesn't use a ramped BBl, but we have done Colts using a ramped 6in longslide BBL and no compensator with no ill effects. Lately we have been doing quite a few of the Para SuperHawg longslides, and they are my favorite. Aside from being a Para (just not my preference,but still good pistols)They have many great features for being a good outdoors gun, like Bomar sights, extended ambi safety for you lefty guys ,checkered frontstrap, and they shoot pretty darn good as well.
    We also have some 6in BBls that Barsto made up for us to go in the XDs, they cost a little more but increase horsepower and the one I built today shot 185gr,255gr and 45 acp hardball into the same hole at 10yds.

  19. #19

    Default BUT

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    We actually do way more polymer pistols then the 1911 types, although we do some of both. I think the main reason that we do more of the polymer guns is the cost, first off a decent 1911 costs twice what an XD does, then the fact that unless your 1911 is a Para you have to machine the frame and fitt the new BBl that is required while we do the conversion on the factory BBl on the XDs and M&Ps.
    As far as a comp being 100% nessicary I dont know if that has something to do with the fact that the Clark kit doesn't use a ramped BBl, but we have done Colts using a ramped 6in longslide BBL and no compensator with no ill effects. Lately we have been doing quite a few of the Para SuperHawg longslides, and they are my favorite. Aside from being a Para (just not my preference,but still good pistols)They have many great features for being a good outdoors gun, like Bomar sights, extended ambi safety for you lefty guys ,checkered frontstrap, and they shoot pretty darn good as well.
    We also have some 6in BBls that Barsto made up for us to go in the XDs, they cost a little more but increase horsepower and the one I built today shot 185gr,255gr and 45 acp hardball into the same hole at 10yds.

    CAN you build a 460 on a witness ? Steel or Poly Frame?
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  20. #20
    Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Default If you are in town

    bring your witness to the shop so we can look at it. I dont have one and have never converted one so i'm not sure if it will work.

    roger that?

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