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Thread: Which Training Program?

  1. #1
    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Question Which Training Program?

    Bringing home a new Lab pup this week. I have read Game Dog by Richard Wolters and done a pile of reading on the internet. And while im sure the subject of which training program to use for a hunting dog is controversial. Im curious on what programs others have used, because of the differences i have come across in my research of the subject. Couple of key things have been Wolters, recommends playing fetch in the house with the pup and doesn't recommend praising the dog except when you intially get the pup to understand the lesson being taught after that recommends not to praise the pup till the session is over. Any input would be appreciated.

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    Member tjm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelast2 View Post
    doesn't recommend praising the dog except when you intially get the pup to understand the lesson being taught after that recommends not to praise the pup till the session is over. Any input would be appreciated.
    I've got to be one of the most ignorant guys when it comes to training dogs but that sounds funny to me....I'd sure like to hear some comments from guys that know about training dogs...If those statements are true then I've been doing it wrong for 3 weeks now...lol..

    when our new pup was 9 weeks old, we had him for only 2 weeks.....at that time he knew how to sit, stay (for a little bit), lay down, kennel, come, short retrieves,and scratch at the door to go potty...we've had him for 3 weeks now and his daily progress is quite noticeable.....all we've been using for almost all of the training was praise, and lots of it, every time he did something correctly......you can really tell that my pup enjoys the praise and responds well to it....perhaps it's just my dog but somehow I doubt it...maybe its a hunting dog thing....
    ------------------------------------------------
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    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Since Wolters books/program there have been advances in how to pressure and teach a dog and I would recommend either Smartworks or Lardy as the modern programs.

    If you want to review these programs the Midnight Sun Gun Dog group has them in their library for members to borrow. Kody Bull should be able to set you up with access. You will have to find their website since I don't have a link here.

    Starting off a pup there is Sound Beginnings which I have heard nothing but good things about.

    In several sources I have come across the praise during training issue.
    Labs are reported to over react to physical praise and a pat on the head can stop a training session. Sometimes a few high pitched "gooddogs" can get them to become unmanageable.

    One weird thing is that some puppies take a lot of praise to get them to come back to you. Others are much better at returning and you don't need to make much of a ruckus to get them to return.

    It took me a while to find the right tone and type of praise that worked for my dog. However, as she matured the types and levels of praise had to change.

    When doing fun bumpers you have to praise the dog on return. Its their "reward" for doing the training. This is from the Smartworks program.

    For a pup fetch in the house on a check cord down a hallway is the way to go. It takes a lot of issues out of the situation and establishes a basic level of work for the dog.

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    If it makes you feel any better I'm using mostly Wolter's techniques. I did get the Smartwork Puppy DVD, but I'm still mostly using Wolter's. We have mostly been working on paper training her, here, sit, and some very easy light retrieving. She is doing good. I think that consistency is as important as the program you choose. Good luck with the new dog, and keep us posted on your progress.



    Jeremiah

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    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Thanks guys guess the praise thing is different depending on which breed so I will just have to be attentive to how the pup responds with and without praise. As for the fetch thing dont want the dog quitting on me so I will take a look at some of the other training tools available.

    that sounds funny to me
    Yeah TJM Thats what I said

    If you want to review these programs the Midnight Sun Gun Dog group has them in their library for members to borrow. Kody Bull should be able to set you up with access. You will have to find their website since I don't have a link here.

    Starting off a pup there is Sound Beginnings which I have heard nothing but good things about.
    Thanks Ray already planning on becoming a member of MSGDA as im hoping to put the pup into some hunt tests so will take a look into the library.

    I think that consistency is as important as the program you choose
    Yeah Jeremiah I agree with you on that thus the questions I suppose going to mostly use Wolters with a few changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thelast2 View Post
    T... guess the praise thing is different depending on which breed ...
    Praise is NOT dependent on the breed, but rather the individual pup -- where he/she is in the learning phase, temperament, boldness, drive, resiliency to new situations, etc. IMO Wolters is way off base saying no-praise-until-the-session is-over. Praise or corrections are all about timing & getting the point across immediately, whether it's a correction for misbehavior or appropriate praise for a task completed. Think you'd be better reading John & Amy Dahl's "The 10-Minute Retriever", Evan Graham's "Smartwork for Retrievers, vol. 1", Tom Quinn's "The Working Retrievers", Mike Lardy's reprinted training articles from "The Retriever Journal", or Butch Goodwin's "Retrievers, From the Inside Out".

    Karen

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    Thanks 3CBRS yeah definitley some more reading to be done on that subject, Gonna set down and reread thru that part in Wolters book maybe im missing something. Anyrate I will look into the other titles yourself and others have mentioned Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3CBRS View Post
    Praise is NOT dependent on the breed, but rather the individual pup -- where he/she is in the learning phase, temperament, boldness, drive, resiliency to new situations, etc. IMO Wolters is way off base saying no-praise-until-the-session is-over. Praise or corrections are all about timing & getting the point across immediately, whether it's a correction for misbehavior or appropriate praise for a task completed. Think you'd be better reading John & Amy Dahl's "The 10-Minute Retriever", Evan Graham's "Smartwork for Retrievers, vol. 1", Tom Quinn's "The Working Retrievers", Mike Lardy's reprinted training articles from "The Retriever Journal", or Butch Goodwin's "Retrievers, From the Inside Out".

    Karen
    ditto!


    Juli
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    I don't think Wolters said not to praise them during training when they are that young. I'll have to look through that again. I read three of his books, and I've been praising my pup when she does anything I ask her to do.

    Just so you know I'm not a major proponent of Wolters stuff it just is the only thing I've read so far. I have a very busy life, and I'm trying to sneak in the other stuff, but my puppy is already here so I'm doing what I can to work with her. I'm watching the Smartwork DVD's as well, and I should probably get the books.


    Jeremiah

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    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Ok went back and reread that portion about the praise to be sure I wasnt misreading it.
    My original post:
    doesnt recommend praising the dog except when you intially get the pup to understand the lesson being taught after that recommends not to praise the pup till the session is over.
    R. Wolters book Game Dog
    Once the command is learned, stop giving him the praise. The dog must learn to do the command for the sake of the work.
    Save the praise for in front of the fireplace, when the work is over
    So from what everyone has said this isnt the generally excepted method. I appreciate the help Thanks

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    I'm not a major proponent of Wolters stuff it just is the only thing I've read so far
    Yeah ditto, basically has been recommend as a starting point. I will be checking into some other materials.

  12. #12

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    There has been lots of great resources mentioned. All as a starting point to work from. Each has a different approach or method to teach the same things. Simply put.....these different methods and techniques all by great names and authors.....are just a tool. If one method doesn't work for you ....you simply reach into your tool box and grab another "tool" to get the job done.

    Nothing in dog training is concrete. There is no one way to do everything. Yes, I follow a training syllabus for each and every dog here. But I may need take a different approach or maybe even use a seperate drill to teach the same thing for another dog. Maybe simplifying it more. Some dogs can take lots of information and accel fast while others can only pick up tid bits at a time and take lots of repetition to learn. Dogs have different attitudes towards learning as well. Some are hard charging while others may need to be coaxed along. So you need to learn how to "READ" into your dog. What is the dogs attitude into this. Is the dog learning the lesson at hand ......Do I need to simplify?......Is it time for a fun bumper just to get the dogs state of mind better. These are the things you aren't going to find in the books and articles you read.

    As you plan to go out training with your dog you have lesson A in mind.
    But you need to have plan B ready in case lesson A becomes a flop.
    Basically making things easier so you can end your training lesson on a positive. You don't want to end your lesson with you yelling and screaming. Fido remembers that tyraid and will not have a good attitude about working with you next time you go out.
    So be prepared with A,B,C,D,E and etc.

    Dog training is an athlete and coach relationship. You have to teach and tone body and mind. Don't teach enough and they do sloppy work. Over teach and they develop attitudes. You have to adjust as you figure out each athletes limitations "physically and mentally"

    Baron Rea

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    Member JuliW's Avatar
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    As you plan to go out training with your dog you have lesson A in mind.
    But you need to have plan B ready in case lesson A becomes a flop.Baron Rea
    So True!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wetland Retrievers View Post
    Basically making things easier so you can end your training lesson on a positive. You don't want to end your lesson with you yelling and screaming. Fido remembers that tyraid and will not have a good attitude about working with you next time you go out.
    Yelling (whether verbally or with a collar or other training tool) and dog training do not work......Yeah, it happens; to anyone that has ever trained a dog.....Unfortunately some people never learn how to control their emotions when they are training a dog...Ideally, you should keep your anger in check and remember you are supposed to be having fun. If you find that your training session has taken a nose dive, stop for a couple of seconds and like Baron said, go back and do something easy and fun - preferably long enough that you see the dog has changed his behavior.

    Juli
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    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Thanks Baron and Juli think I have enough info to start with, and if what I have dont work I will look into something else, and heck Baron is only down the street. If I get into to much trouble im sure I can get some help. Thanks again Everyone

    Jesse

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