Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 38

Thread: Alternating hardcast slugs with hollowpoints for bear defense?

  1. #1
    Member Maast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    510

    Default Alternating hardcast slugs with hollowpoints for bear defense?

    I finally found a local supplier of 10mm ammo at Alaska High-Performance Ammo (http://alaska-ammo.com/). Great guy, it also turns out he's on the forum as AKrstabout and is the sponsor of the Ammo Dump forum, which I didnt even realize was there. Saved me a bundle.

    Now that I have it I'd like to know if alternating hardcast slugs with hollowpoints in my 15 round magazines is a good idea for bear defense. The gun is in a chest holster so I can get to it quickly and I'm a decent shot.

    The idea is to have the hardcast 230 grain for deep penetration/kill with 180 grain hollowpoints for soft tissue damage and "sudden impact" that would make a bear pause (so I can put more lead into him), I dont know if the hollowpoints would do any good though.

    Something else to think about is that the recoil of the two different rounds is very different, the hardcast 230 has a pretty stiff recoil (750 ft./lbs muzzle) and the 180 hollowpoints not so much (620ft/lbs)

    Every weekend during the season I'm in the middle of nowhere in waders and (hopefully) have a string of bloody fish on a stringer so I'm a prime target for bears.
    I've already had a couple minor encounters with small blackies but they've run off when I yelled at them.

    Ideas?

  2. #2
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    I would forget the hollow point rounds and just fill the clip up w/ the hard cast pills. It sure would suck to have the "good shot" not penetrate!!

  3. #3
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,599

    Default

    Nope,whats good for the first rounds is also best for the last. It will be long over before any need of just solf tissue damage becomes a good idea.Save the HP's for town

  4. #4
    Member Maast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Hardcasts all the way then, my hope/idea was that the hollowpoints would make a bear pause or flinch for a moment so I could get more lead in the air, not that it would actually stop/kill it.

    I got the idea when I was shooting with hollowpoints to get a feel for the rounds at some honeydew melons that had gotten mushy and it kept knocking over the makeshift table I had them on, no matter how I braced it or how many rocks I stacked up.

    The impact is a heck of a hard and sudden "whack" and I thought it'd make a bear pause for a moment.

    I'm no gun/ammo expert though, or know much about bear behavior - so I thought I'd ask.

  5. #5
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wasilla--Cantwell Transplant
    Posts
    4,600

    Default

    I think people worry too much about having the perfect setup then actually being prepared for the situation (mentally and having the shooting skills required for such an encounter).

    Case in point..

    A guy that works with me shot a brownie outta Ninilchik DLP two weeks ago. He was riding his bicycle on some of the back roads hunting in a non-motorized area. 2-3 cows come busting outta the brush and head down the road in front of him, not seeing him. He's thinkin 'cool, theres gotta be something following them'.

    Couple more cows out and up on the road. He waits 5 minutes and nothing. Meanwhile, he took his rifle off his shoulder, got the scope caps off and got one in the throat of his .300 WBY.

    After the wait, he turns around to seeing a 7.5' brown bear at a dead run toward him at 50'. He shoulders the rifle and sees what she does. The bear slowed and stood on her hind legs, still stutter-stepping in his direction. He made the decision that if the bear came back down and kept coming, he was going to shoot.

    Well, she kept coming and he gave her one dead-center-mass and she wheeled around, ran back down the road and died a ways down. Next her three two-three y/o cubs came out of the brush to see what mommas problem was. They finally meandered off and he got his composure to get some help skinning it out.

    Its now his favorite rifle after complaining about the price of ammo for 5 days prior!

  6. #6
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maast View Post
    I finally found a local supplier of 10mm ammo at Alaska High-Performance Ammo (http://alaska-ammo.com/). Great guy, it also turns out he's on the forum as AKrstabout and is the sponsor of the Ammo Dump forum, which I didnt even realize was there. Saved me a bundle.

    Now that I have it I'd like to know if alternating hardcast slugs with hollowpoints in my 15 round magazines is a good idea for bear defense. The gun is in a chest holster so I can get to it quickly and I'm a decent shot.

    The idea is to have the hardcast 230 grain for deep penetration/kill with 180 grain hollowpoints for soft tissue damage and "sudden impact" that would make a bear pause (so I can put more lead into him), I dont know if the hollowpoints would do any good though.

    Something else to think about is that the recoil of the two different rounds is very different, the hardcast 230 has a pretty stiff recoil (750 ft./lbs muzzle) and the 180 hollowpoints not so much (620ft/lbs)

    Every weekend during the season I'm in the middle of nowhere in waders and (hopefully) have a string of bloody fish on a stringer so I'm a prime target for bears.
    I've already had a couple minor encounters with small blackies but they've run off when I yelled at them.

    Ideas?
    Lets re-phrase that and see if it makes sense, you want to wound a bear at close range, so you can shoot it some more while it is attacking you? If your going to shoot, shoot to kill with every shot! The load combination that kills it quickest is the best. The bear will most likely keep coming and kill you or will get away wounded. That sudden painful whack that doesn't stop it will only make it mad and fight harder. I'f your going to shoot, shoot to kill. A 230 grain hardcast is a better choice. You might want to consider a different gun if you can swing it, a .44 Mag perhaps that will sling 300 grains of hard cast bullet at 1200FPS.

  7. #7
    Member stevelyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Fairbanksan in Aleutian Hell
    Posts
    1,316

    Default

    Penetration, penetration, penetration. Forget the HPs. You need to reach through to the other side.

    Stick with the hard stuff.
    Now what ?

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    I think people worry too much about having the perfect setup then actually being prepared for the situation (mentally and having the shooting skills required for such an encounter).

    Case in point..

    A guy that works with me shot a brownie outta Ninilchik DLP two weeks ago. He was riding his bicycle on some of the back roads hunting in a non-motorized area. 2-3 cows come busting outta the brush and head down the road in front of him, not seeing him. He's thinkin 'cool, theres gotta be something following them'.

    Couple more cows out and up on the road. He waits 5 minutes and nothing. Meanwhile, he took his rifle off his shoulder, got the scope caps off and got one in the throat of his .300 WBY.

    After the wait, he turns around to seeing a 7.5' brown bear at a dead run toward him at 50'. He shoulders the rifle and sees what she does. The bear slowed and stood on her hind legs, still stutter-stepping in his direction. He made the decision that if the bear came back down and kept coming, he was going to shoot.

    Well, she kept coming and he gave her one dead-center-mass and she wheeled around, ran back down the road and died a ways down. Next her three two-three y/o cubs came out of the brush to see what mommas problem was. They finally meandered off and he got his composure to get some help skinning it out.

    Its now his favorite rifle after complaining about the price of ammo for 5 days prior!
    Good story.

    Good the moose got away.

    Good rifle

    Good shootin

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  9. #9

    Default What?

    Why was he riding a bicycle hunting with a rifle slung over his back? Sounds impractical and uncomfortable. A bear can cover 50 feet in about 2 seconds. Incredibly lucky, I think.

  10. #10
    New member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Marshall
    Posts
    1,975

    Talking hehehe...

    Bears ain't melons...hehehe

  11. #11
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wasilla--Cantwell Transplant
    Posts
    4,600

    Default

    No doubt he was lucky. As far as riding a bicycle, I dunno, I guess he was trying to cover as much country per day as he could. Not quite sure 'good the moose got away', but I think having the bear stutter-step on its hind legs may have given him just what he needed. All the stars definitely were aligned...

  12. #12
    Member Maast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    You might want to consider a different gun if you can swing it, a .44 Mag perhaps that will sling 300 grains of hard cast bullet at 1200FPS.
    My Glock 20 10mm shooting the 230 grain @ 1200 fps is the most energetic round I can shoot rapidly and accurately: 3 rounds in 1.5 seconds into the center of mass of a man sized target @ 75 feet. Which may not sound like much, but it's taken me a good bit of practice to consistantly shoot like that.

    Anything larger than that and I can't recover from the recoil fast enough to maintain any accuracy at all if I'm trying to rapid fire.

  13. #13
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maast View Post
    My Glock 20 10mm shooting the 230 grain @ 1200 fps is the most energetic round I can shoot rapidly and accurately: 3 rounds in 1.5 seconds into the center of mass of a man sized target @ 75 feet. Which may not sound like much, but it's taken me a good bit of practice to consistantly shoot like that.

    Anything larger than that and I can't recover from the recoil fast enough to maintain any accuracy at all if I'm trying to rapid fire.
    I'm not trying to be offensive. You might want to try bear spray. I would rather run the bear off unwounded rather then have a wounded bear go after someone else. I believe that as soon as we strap on a firearm and go out we have a responsibility. For example, making sure no-one captures our weapon, making sure we don't hit other people with stray rounds if we do have to shoot. Shooting a bear with an under powered handgun, which is subjective for the most part, places other people at risk. If you spray the bear with pepper spray he goes away and will most likely shy away from people for awhile. If you place well aimed shots that do nothing but create angry wounds that hurt like hell, you create a bear that is even more unpredictable. This puts others at risk. If you can engage a target with the proficiency you say you can, then why not put some practice into a handgun capable of thowing a heavier hard cast with a greater chance of putting the bear down.

  14. #14
    Moderator hunt_ak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wasilla--Cantwell Transplant
    Posts
    4,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    If you place well aimed shots that do nothing but create angry wounds that hurt like hell, you create a bear that is even more unpredictable.
    If the shots are well-aimed and go where intended, whats the issue?

  15. #15
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    If the shots are well-aimed and go where intended, whats the issue?
    The idea is to have the hardcast 230 grain for deep penetration/kill with 180 grain hollowpoints for soft tissue damage and "sudden impact" that would make a bear pause (so I can put more lead into him), I dont know if the hollowpoints would do any good though.

    My point is the mentality behind the tactical plan. The "sudden impact" of a 180 grain hollow point spreading out just under the fur will most likely have no desireable affect. I also believe that 230 grain is too small. If that is the only handgun available, use the 230 grain bullet but don't count on it stopping a bear. If you can practice well enough to hit 3 180 grain HP shots in 1.5 seconds into a man size target at 75 feet, why not work at 3x 300 grains at the same distance. If we were planning to hunt a bear with a handgun, how many would choose the 10mm? I guess my point is that if you have a choice, use a more capable gun to save your life. My point is not to offend though and please don't take offense.

  16. #16
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,599

    Default

    The 240 out of the 44mag was standard bear dope before the bigger bullets came along. I don't thin three shots center mass on a man size target is good for stopping bears but three in the head on the same target would.Of course at 25 yards most times you don't know the bear is really charging

  17. #17
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Smile

    OK, I give. The 230 grain hard cast is just fine for defending yourself against a bear.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    564

    Default

    Out of curiousity you really think that extra 70 grs of lead will make that big a difference? the smaller diameter of the 10mm bullet will only help penetration with such a heavy hard cast. I load a lot of 220gr hard casts out of the 10mm at 1150fps and they penetrate like crazy.

  19. #19
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thebear_78 View Post
    Out of curiousity you really think that extra 70 grs of lead will make that big a difference? the smaller diameter of the 10mm bullet will only help penetration with such a heavy hard cast. I load a lot of 220gr hard casts out of the 10mm at 1150fps and they penetrate like crazy.
    I do think the 70 grains matters. I don't own a 10mm. I'll be honest, I didn't know you could get 230 grain bullets for a 10mm much less push them out at that velocity. What load are you guys using that is pushing a 230 grain bullet out of a 10mm at 1200 fps?

  20. #20
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    [/IMG]

    Penetrate what?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •