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Thread: Dipnetter education. I dont think it will help

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    Default Dipnetter education. I dont think it will help

    I would like to back up a bit and say it will help a bit but thats about all. People know they should leave all their garbage behind. People know they should not trespass, people know they should not take a crap in some ones back yard and leave a pile of TP behind. People know they should not be doing what they are doing 90% of the time they are doing it. Now if you put out more Porta Potty's and start writing 250.00 tickets for littering and tresspassing you would see it clean up in a hurry. Put a lot of LEO's on the rivers. Partner regular LEO"S with troopers so they can be stretched farther. You could have an off duty Anchorage LEO in uniform with a trooper. You now have an extra set of eyes and back up for the trooper. Use the money from tickets to pay for the expense and you would see it clean up in one heck of a hurry. In MN we went to handicapped parking in front of stores. The state spent a ton of money for education. They bought billboard space. Adds on TV and print. The problem on non handicapped people parking in handicapped spots did not change. THen they upped the fine to 200.00 dollars and it stopped overnight when people got bit for 200.00 instead of 5.00. That was about 15yrs ago and it got cleaned up overnight!

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    Default You coulld be right but it's worth a shot

    I'm from the school that most people just don't use their heads. Any kind of reminder should help those that are just ignorant. The rest of the slobs, enforcement is the key, you are right.

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    Default

    I am a non resident so i dont have a horse in this race. When i was fishing the Kenai with a buddy who is a resident we took the boat down so he could show me what it was like. He did not net as i was with we just watched. I was shocked. It reminded me of how the smelt runs in MN was like before they clamped down. They wound up closing some rivers down and i would really hate to see that up there for the people who respect the outdoors. When fishing Halibut we saw a guy slip beer cans into the water on CI. Who does not know that is wrong?? a 300.00 reminder would help clean that up. I am not talking about the guy who has a candy bar wrapper blow out of the boat pounding across the 5ft waves but wanton disrespect of the outdoors. There is NO EXCUSE for it and it should not be tolerated. What you have up there is to be treasured and respected i could tell from the way many people treated the land it was not. It was just plain sad!

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    Default Treasured and respected

    KG - you are absolutely right. The Kenai and Kasilof salmon runs should be treasured and respected, but they aren't. One reason is that the dipnet fishery itself minimizes the value of these fish by allowing excessive bag limits, a resident-only "right", and unsporting methods of capture. That is why I am a recovering dipnetter. I caught all I wanted on a rod and reel this year, like the old days, and it was much more satisfying. I just read the new City of Kenai Dipnet Report, more of the same problems. People actually breaking down fencing and camping on private property without permission. Sickening.

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    Default more leo's

    I think the fastest fix on the people who abuse it is to hit them in the wallet. Put some more leo's in the area and write tickets to the guys that are causing the problems. I don't have the time to come down 10 x to catch that many fish hook and line, Beautiful fresh reds infact just grilled some up last night what a feast.
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    Default One question, kgprc

    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    I would like to back up a bit and say it will help a bit but thats about all. People know ...
    kgprc, you say "Dipnetter education. I dont think it will help" - OK, let's talk about that a bit:

    Do you have the same feeling about the effectiveness of the Hunter Ed program?

    If yes, why do you feel that the Hunter Ed. program is not making real improvements in the real world?

    If no, then what specifically makes our dipnet problems different to solve?

    Thanks in advance. I'd love to get a into some specifics on this subject, and to hear more about your reasoning.

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    Default

    People already know not to tear down a fence on private property and camp there. People already know not to leave all thier trash behid. People know not to drive on the dunes. People know not to crap in someones back yard. How is education going to help what they already know? I dont get it. You can send me back to 2nd grade but i already know how to read so what will it help?? IF they dont know when you are correct educate them but most of the problems i saw were ones that people already knew were wrong. Dead wrong! Just my .02

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    Default I hear you - and I agree with what you say...

    ... but I believe it goes beyond that.

    Hunter Ed for the very most part teaches people what they already know also. And it was implemented for the reason of increasing compliance on issues that I think are pretty darned straightforward and common sense....

    Now doesn't this bear a striking resemblance to the problems surrounding today's dipnetting? Meaning in part, the problems you describe below? And isn't this the type of improvement (increased compliance and respect and such) we need for dipnetting right in the same ballpark as the gains that were made by the sport of hunting, after they instituted Hunter Ed? I think the answer is yes and yes.

    And Hunter Ed. is proven, indisputably, to help right these exact wrongs.

    Though I agree with all you say kgpcr, our conclusions are different about whether Dipnet Ed. would help.

    What part of what I'm saying here doesn't seem right, or doesn't make sense?

    And thank you for taking part in this discussion. Working together, especially when we are not agreeing, has to be a good thing I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    People already know not to tear down a fence on private property and camp there. People already know not to leave all thier trash behid. People know not to drive on the dunes. People know not to crap in someones back yard. How is education going to help what they already know? I dont get it. You can send me back to 2nd grade but i already know how to read so what will it help?? IF they dont know when you are correct educate them but most of the problems i saw were ones that people already knew were wrong. Dead wrong! Just my .02

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    Default

    Familyman
    You may very well be right that education will help a great deal. Personaly i just dont think some things should not have to be taught again and again such as litter and blatant trespassing. My first reaction is when some one decides to litter then they should pay a consequense, They have been told an taught not to leave all your garbage behind. they know better. Fine the pants off of them, say 250.00. You blatantly trespass you dont need to be educated but fined heavily. Just my thought but Familyman you are right. there is a place for education. I have little tolerance for blatant violations. The thing that my be clouding my judgement is that is such a precious rescource that it deserves nothing less than respect. Same with the fishery for hook and line as well. It is to be treasured and cherished and when some one pisses all over it i get a bit steamed. Again i am not talking about minor infractions but willfully disrespecting and defiling the fishery as well as the private property their as well. I saw a guy look around to see who was watching and dump a big garbage bag of beer cans etc and keep on walking. I walked over picked up the bag and followed him to his truck. when he got there i ripped open the bag and emptied it in the box of his truck. I WAS STEAMED!! He looked at all 6'4'' 325lbs of me and kept his mouth shut when i told him he forgot this back there a ways. OK i will chill now but that type of behavior has no excuse. NONE at all!!

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    Thumbs up eye to eye

    I agree 100% with every last thing that you said. I too feel very strongly about blatantly purposeful irresponsibility and also have very little tolerance for dumb disrespect.

    Though I might be a tad less confrontive than you about it ... but I'm still cheering you on! I would have loved to watch you do that with the trash. Had I seen it first hand, you'd have heard a smiling person clapping appreciatively... and that would have been me.

    Additionally, I think we need to stay open to more solutions beyond looking into increasing education and awareness. I've got a few other ideas I want to kick around a bit before saying them aloud here; very often discussion an initial idea with someone else can result in a more developed idea that can help far better than the initial one.

    Thanks again, lets keep this goin' constructively, just like we have; this is good stuff.

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    Thumbs up KGCPR, Good post...

    Keep it up, we need all that want to continue to get a little fish in the freezer, to keep the dialog up. Family man is spot on, we need all discussions and all thoughts to save this personal use fishery. Keep it up, Please!!! Ken, SCADA

  12. #12

    Default It is not about education.

    You can't legislate intelligence. Niether can you legislate motivation. I watched people throw there trash NEXT TO the trash cans last year. I wathced as one group that camped there for over a week throw latex gloves all over the place. It wasn't 20 ft to the trash can. I walked around and picked up trash while I waited for fish to clean. If they can put a person in the toll booth and collect all that money, Hire someone to pass out citations for littering. Walk the beach and hand out a few tickets, count what's in the cooler, be there to see who is leaving and then coming back for second helpings. Show your cards at the gate so someone is looking to see if you at least filled in your card. Even if you did it randomly word would get out and at least a few more people would comply. I don't believe the problem has anything with people not knowing the rules, it's about they know the rules are enforced with a lax hand. And then when an officer does show up he didn't know the rules and told people they were fishing in the wrong place. I checked the regs. he was mistaken. I just don't see taking a class on dipnetting as a real solution to anything.

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    Question what about hunter ed?

    Do you believe that today's mandatory hunter ed. class has increased compliance with hunting regulations, created more/better peer pressure among hunters, made the sport of hunting safer, or allowed hunters to be perceived in a better light by nonhunters? Any of those things?

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    Default some questions about priority

    I think education can go so far but I have some logistical concerns about this hunter education approach. Maybe someone can address these questions.

    First, with 15,000 families getting a permit just for UCI and assuming every member of the household needs an ID card to participate we are look at between 45,000 and 60,000 people to educate. That is a costly proposal. Who is going to pay for this and who are the instructors relative to the issues? If ADF&G that means employees with benifits which runs about 60,000 per year for each employee. I do not think one person can do it with the volume so you can see how this could be a logistical issue, at least in the first years. Also, classes would have to be held multiple times over the year.

    Second, from the Kenai experience it costs about 200,000 grand a year to deal with the large group. Add Kasilof and the costs go up significantly. Would it not be better to have fees associated with the fishery to fund these activities rather than fees for an educational program? I believe that a few well placed enforcement officers at Kasilof can keep things clean along with the facilities to handle the crowds.

    Third, would it not be better to have the responsible land owners close sections to camping at Kasilof - there is little reason for the campling at this site when other State facilities are relatively close to the fishery. Kenai is more of a problem but camping is a major issue for a number of these problems. Either we should develop a full camping area with parking and facilities or make people go to areas that are developed.

    So with limited funds does it make sense to put the limited monies into an educational program?

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    Arrow here are some answers

    I would encourage others to answer also, but here are some from me (I use your numbering):

    First: I'd recommend Dipnet Ed. be done solely over the Internet, vastly reducing its cost and that it be paid for by a combination of Dingell-Johnson funds and by dipnetters. The DJ rules allow:
    "states may use 10 percent of apportioned funds to pay up to 75 percent of the costs of an aquatic resource education and outreach program"
    Why should dipnetters shoulder part of this cost? Because its dipnetter's problem to solve; not non-dipnetters.

    Second, yes, but "rather than"? I agree with you that larger numbers of participants warrant (and have already "paid for") more on-site officers; I've argued that exact point here. But are we so sure of that solution that we can put our eggs in that basket alone? And better yet, ARE we putting our eggs in that basket at all? The problem is well known; the location is well known; the timing is well known. This is a crime fighter's dream; just show up there/then and bust. But my point is, in years time, it either isn't happening or it is and its not fixing things.

    Also there is a very real and long standing lack of management structure within the Fed, State, and Local governments regarding who should take the lead on this effort. The city of Kenai has to some extent - likely because they felt they had no choice; someone had to do something - but clearly it has not made much of a dent in fixing things, and doesn't address the Kasilof either.

    I'm not aware of any plan now being drafted or executed by any of these branches of our government that is today intended to address the problems. So, if we don't change things, how can we expect a different result?

    Third, proposing closing a public beach to camping is a pretty serious step for you to say. The furor would be deafening if you seriously proposed that publicly. I'm not in favor of removing the public's right to be on public land.

    And to address your last question, yes, I think it does make sense to put money into education in an attempt to fix this problem, and to do so using a very professional and successful and proven group to do it with, and to do it using that group's experience and prior successes to try to leverage that into more and better compliance to the rules (and common sense) in dipnetting, as has been - past tense - accomplished successfully in the sport of hunting by the same-group/same-program/same-method.

    Disclaimer -> Everything I say here is as a private citizen only; I speak for no group, and am not affiliated with commercial fishing or hunting. I'm just trying to do my best here, and possibly do some good. While preparing this proposal to BOF I did verbalize it to one handful of people - who told others involved in dipnetting - some of whom helped me (3 that I know are members here, though likely more of them are) and one of whom interviewed me for the one article that was written and appeared in 3 places that I'm presently aware of.

    Now I'd like to hear other people also answer your three questions. Thanks for the discussion; lets keep it going.

    Anyone else want to take a try at answering those three questions?

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I'd recommend Dipnet Ed. be done solely over the Internet...

    Second, ... more on-site officers.


    Third, proposing closing a public beach to camping is a pretty serious step for you to say.
    1.Dipnet Ed solely over the internet?

    What about folks without internet? What are the fees associated with course development, enforcement, servers, record keeping, etc...?


    2. The laws are in place. If they are not being enforced, the local community should force the issue.

    3. It's bad juju to set a precedent. This feeds back into the beginning.


    This is all only my opinion. If someone wants to cull the herd of dipnetters, change the requirements. Building self imposed hoops and taxing yourself does not seem like the most effective method to a problem that exists within another department.

    This is an enforcement question, not an education question.

    Thoughts?
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    Default thanks for the response

    I think brain storming shoud not be a negative adventure so I am not trying to be negative.

    The internet solution does have merit. Maybe permits could also be printed out at the end of the course and eliminate printing and delivery costs. Also, like the online Permanent Fund a record of the application will be on file. Costs are still a concern for any internet program.

    I was not saying to close the beaches to public use but just to camping. I believe the City of Kenai is making a big mistake with allowing camping as it makes it a 24 hour/7 day a week monitoring/enforcement effort. Kasilof camping is out of hand for lack of area and facilities. If controls are put in place then camping is fine but uncontrolled camping is leading to dune destruction, waste on the ground, and lack of police for safety. I do not see an education course dealing with the infrastructure issues so am trying in my mind to separate out different courses of action.

    I have been thinking about a total dip net package of solutions and the education via internet has merit. It would be great if someone could come up with some costs to do this.

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    Thumbs up print the cards online

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Maybe permits could also be printed out at the end of the course and eliminate printing and delivery costs.
    Yes. When the Internet "prints" it to the person's screen online, the costs go way down in administering the program over the long run.

    I agree with everything you said except the part about closing public beach to camping. But I do see why you see that as a next step; because the problem is serious and needs handled, not transferred to the next agency which isn't accepting it (I'm referring to the confusion regarding Fed/State/Local oversight here).

    Not saying I know better, just that I'd prefer a next step that is less provocative to the general public. That fix will have a large opposition I think.

    Again, thanks for the frank/open discussion about all of this. Working together we'll do better than if we don't.

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    Out of curiosity, why won't enforcement work?
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    Question a great question deserves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phish Finder View Post
    Out of curiosity, why won't enforcement work?
    ... a great answer. Wish I had one for you. I've asked that same question here, on that very subject.

    A better question though: Why hasn't it worked?

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