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Thread: Propane Showers --- Crazy Question

  1. #1
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    Default Propane Showers --- Crazy Question

    You can't use these showers(propane showers) inside??? Can you???

    My neighbor and I were talking and he said you can. I wasn't able to catch his explanation b/c I had to leave for some reason I can't remember. My neighbor usually knows what he is talking about...but I am not sure this time......
    Last edited by billhicksmostfunny; 09-24-2009 at 19:15. Reason: Mis spelling

  2. #2
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Do Not use system indoors. The Hot Tap, like all propane devices, generates deadly carbon monoxide fumes when operating. This product is designed for outdoor use only. Do not operate Hot Tap inside boats, RVs, tents, homes or other confined areas. Use only outdoors in well ventilated areas away from flammable material.
    This is the warning that comes with a Zodi shower. Frankly we have used them indoors in several cabins I have stayed in. No worse than using a Coleman propane lantern or propane stove inside.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    If propane is burned hot enough, it won't put off as much carbon monoxide. However if the unit says not to use indoors, then you shouldn't use it indoors. At the very least, you should get a carbon monoxide detector. I'm pretty careful about propane. CO poisoning kills a lot of people in the north.
    That's what she said...

  4. #4

    Default Open the window

    I have used one (ZODI) indoors for over 2 years and just crack the window (3"). CO2 build up takes time and normally happens when heating a building. The big danger is not having the water running while heating, happened once only! LOL

  5. #5

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    Just bought one of these. http://www.excelamerica.com/calentadores_eng.htm Will be installing this week. This vents inside.

  6. #6

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    has any one seen or used the CO2 detectors that are hooked up to a ventilation fan?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by klickitat View Post
    has any one seen or used the CO2 detectors that are hooked up to a ventilation fan?
    Acme Products makes a nice one. More of a commercial product, though. I don't know if there is a residential equivalent made? This one runs about $800 just for the detector and the sensors do wear out over time.

    http://www.acmeprod.com/EN/catalog/h...p?product_id=1

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    Default Thanks........

    .........for all the info everyone.

    pa18tony-----that product looks pretty **** nice. Let us know how the install goes and how satisfied you are with it as soon as you can.

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    Default A word of caution

    To all those who think it's just fine to burn gas-fired vented products indoors:

    Byproducts of combusting a fossil fuel such as Propane or Nat Gas:

    We start out with the chemicals in the fuels, then add in the compounds found in our "Air" that we use for" combustion air" ---- we breath air that is 20.9% O2 ( oxygen ) & 78-80% Nitrogen.
    When mixed and combusted with fuel, our byproducts ( flue gasses ) are somewhere is the neighborhood of : 10-20% CO2 ( carbon dioxide ) , 2-4% Sulfer Dioxide ( depending upon the fuel ), and carbon monoxide ( CO ) anywhere from 0-30% depending on how much "fresh air" stays available for combustion. Also lots of unburned Nitrogen, as well as unburned O2 ( oxygen) pass thru the process unburned. These mate up with other free-flowing gases and molecules from the combustion process and can combine to create things such as sulferic acid, hydrocloric acid, etc. , depending upon the given chemicals and combustion processes taking place. Water in it's vapor form ( above 212 deg F. ) is found in very high concentrations when combustiing any fossil fuel, be it wood, coal, oil, or gas. This is where all that "moisture" is coming from when using approved "vent-free" appliances.

    CO (carbon monoxide ) is an indicator of "incomplete combustion"; Complete Combustion is a term that basically means there is an excess amount of air compared to fuel to adequately combust the fuel such that norrmal exhaust compounds fall into their normal realms. When "fresh air " becomes diminished due to either choking down an air setting, or restricting, or using up, your fresh air--- higher levels of CO are produced. If things are as they should be, you would produce higher levels of CO2 and lesser amounts of CO. Thus- if CO is rising, you have restricted or insufficient "combustion air ".

    That being said-- keep in mind both CO and CO2 , as well as SO2 ( sulfer dioxide ) are poisonous to humans in higher concentrations. These gases exhaust into the surrounding area ( your indoor environment where you're firing your heater into ) and can, over time, DISPLACE the levels of Fresh Air ( Nitrogen and Oxygen ) that you need to combust your fuel and also breath into your lungs to stay alive. As this happens, and available O2 is reduced, more CO is produced, and the relationship multiplies the longer it is allowed to continue, making things worse and worse.

    It is wise to open a window or door to allow these gasses to escape, and new fresh air to come in and dilute down the concentrations of these gasses.

    So if you're trying to keep a place warm, and you have to open a window or door to keep it ventilated and safe, why not just use a chimney to give these gasses a direct path to the outside to escape to, and keep your window or door closed and keep the heat in? This is the compelling reason for a chimney.

    I've already said enough, and won't go into my opinion of "vent-free" appliances.

    But as someone who is educated and trained on this subject and used to teach it, I cringe every time I hear about people venting heaters indoors that clearly state that they are required to be vented directly to the outside. Condition yourself to save some money over time, and expend the effort, to install the proper type of chimney for your heating system.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    But as someone who is educated and trained on this subject and used to teach it, I cringe every time I hear about people venting heaters indoors that clearly state that they are required to be vented directly to the outside. Condition yourself to save some money over time, and expend the effort, to install the proper type of chimney for your heating system.
    Your right, the cost of a chimney is probably less than the cost of a funeral.
    That's what she said...

  11. #11

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    Mr Bill. Using propane lights and stove are vent free too. How would they differ or is burned propane the same in all cases?

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    Propane on-demand water heaters consume a significant volume of fuel and put out a proportionate volume of exhaust. At least that's the case with my Paloma. But, I have friends who vent their Polomas indoors since the use is so limited. They're doing fine so far.

  13. #13

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    Did a little looking and found that a propane light burns 1lb per 11 hours of use. 5 lights running and pilot lights on the stove and the refrigerator use about 10,000 btus per hr. The water heater that i bought uses 38,000 btus per hr. 15 min. a day would be probally all we would use. Thats about 9500 btus a day. A pound of propane = 21,548 btus. A pilot light uses 600 to 1000 btus per hour. Honda eu 2000 burns .083 gal per hour about 10000 btus per hour.

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    Default Very Good Question

    PA18Tony;

    Sorry- I don't check the Forum every day. You asked a very good question, and thought I'd jump in, be it days late, and answer it:

    Why are propane lights, gas cook stoves for that matter, etc. , and propane refrigerators ok in an enclosed house, but other types of units area frowned upon?

    The quick simple answer is that they are specifically designed to be a
    "ventless" product. Yes- yours' an others' input about the volume of gas, and thus the volume of exhaust, is minimal compared to the volume of space they vent into, is correct.

    To go to the other extreme end of the equation, we design and utilize what are called " direct-fired make-up air units" on the commercial side for make-up air in restaurants. This is to replace the large volume of air that is discharged out of the kitchens by the large kitchen-hoods and their exhaust fans above the cook stoves, grills, etc. These units are quite large, and vary from anywhere from a small one at maybe 250,000 btu, up thru multi-million btu units. These units, referred to as Direct-fired, is a term which means air passes over a very large open burner flame and is heated, then goes directly into the kitchen. There is no flue-exhaust. It can be said, in simple terms, that these are 100% efficient, as
    ( theoretically) all energy is passed from the flame to the airstream.

    Why does this not kill people? Because of what is referred to as " excess air"--- if you can properly entrain enough air and mix it with the fuel to completely combust the fuel, there will be no carbon monoxide at all, very low amounts of CO2, but still plenty of moisture. ( Ever been in a restaurant kitchen that WASN'T moist? ). The other trace byproducts are still there in lower qtys, but there is so much ventilation taking place
    (exhaust and replacement of this exhausted air by the MUA unit ) that they are safe to use in Engineered-designed specific applications. It is against code to use a Direct-fired MUA unit as a sole heat source in a residential home.

    Vent-free heaters ( such as a Mr. Buddy, etc. ), propane lights, propane refrigerators, are actually a "passive " direct-fired" unit. Passive meaning there is no fan-forced assistance to the process-- they are using natural draft and convection current to move the hot byproducts away from the combustion area.
    The propane lights are a small qty of exhaust, and typically add no more to an area than the natural leakage rate of the structure replaces thru natural asperation.

    All Consumer used vent-free appliances are required to have a safety device called an Oxygen Depletion Sensor ( ODS). Simply stated- this is nothing more that a glorified Thermocouple circuit, very similar to the one seen on your typical atmospheric water heater.
    As oxygen is displaced and/or used up in the area of the heater, it begins to deform the burner flame, and as this happens, the flame begins to waiver near the sensor, the sensor no longer sees proper voltage thru millivolt circuit as the flame lifts off the surface of the sensor, and then performs its safety task by dropping out the burner/ gas valve circuit and the heater is shut off.

    "Vented" appliances are designed both from a burner/combustion process to be directly vented to the outdoors, and thus do not have these safety devices built into their combustion systems. And you cannot "rewire" a vented one and retrofit it with an ODS and then safely use it in a confined space. It could certainly be done by an enterprising individual, but he/she would also have to be categorized as a Stupid one, as well.

    Vent-free, and vented burner processes are Engineered diferently and designed to specifically perform properly within their given design criteria.

    Sorry- another long explanation. But these are things I wish a great deal more of the general population would understand better

  15. #15
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    Default Hey PA18Tony how did it work?

    Do you have to have a cold and hot input to take a shower, or have enough volume?

  16. #16

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    Well we did not install it yet. We were enertaining guests and all but me had the crud. Next time up.

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