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Thread: Let's Take A Breath!!!!

  1. #1

    Default Let's Take A Breath!!!!

    I would like to see the NNC (No New Cartridge) and let's all take a breath and the manufactures focus on good fit and finish of their products demonstrating some craftsmanship and quality. I know, money, sails and such, so it ain't going to happen!!!!!

    Why? Because marketing people, market. Advertising people advertise. So whether they work for Remington or Ruger or whoever, their job has very very little to do with anything concerning the customer's NEEDS, but rather what can they convince the customer that he must have to be happy and up to date. Forget about making quality firearms, because the "Paradigm" has changed. Gun manufactures are following much of the marketing philosophy of today, where things have changed from providing actual NEEDS to producing and advocating WANTS as if they WERE NEEDS.


    Many of us are perfectly happy with the 30-06 or the 300 Win Mag or the 338 Win Mag but the "new" guys see their role as selling the "new" cartridge to the new buyer and in order to do that they need to design, produce and advertise the newest and latest to the newest and latest people involved in the buying guns as they create a want and pass it off as a need.


    We, old farts or guys that are really really knowledgeable understand the basic limits to the product and understand that the short mags or the Ruger Proprietary cartridges aren't fundamentally better than the old cases.


    The new CEO's of the gun manufacturing world sees their role as selling the NEW product to the new buyer.


    It seems as though there is a fundamental problem of losing the battle and the effort will become gratuitous. I believe there is a change in the demographics of our society in the urban as well as the rural realm. There is a percentage change in that as the population grows, there will be fewer and fewer hunters and shooters, regardless of what the manufactures do.


    That is why I said it is a gratuitous effort because it will reach a max and then collapse on the gun manufactures. If there is not good craftsmanship in the rifles and quality to attract those of us who will remain faithful in purchasing guns, the manufactures will have nothing to allure us with to their products.


    Frankly, I think this whole new thing based on getting us to want instead of giving us what we need, is a train wreck waiting to happen.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I remember not that long ago when S&W tried to please everyone and brought out a new gun almost every month.It was their worst years,quaility was down as well as the research before the product came to market.Ruger has done it alot lately with a recall on about everything new. Marlin didn't realy think out the need for their new rounds.It seemed they just wanted their name on something and hoped it would sell.I'm all for makeing the best product you can and the bullet folks makeing the best performance bullets they can.Better bullets have done more to help hunting than any new cartrage.JMHO

  3. #3

    Default

    Heck, I could guarantee them a 20% jump in market share if they'd just put that R&D money into turning out left handed models in a full range of calibers. I've spent enough on rebarreling lefty actions over the years to encourage them that it's a really profitable route.

  4. #4

    Default unfortunately

    I believe that the majority of gun owners are not necessarily gun "enthusiasts." This doesn't make them bad, or unbelievers, it just means that those of us who have a real passion for firearms, their history, their future, etc. are not the major part of the "paradigm." Most gun owners are consumers who like to target shoot, hunt or just have a firearm, so the market place deals primarily with them. I believe there are still enough cool guns, guns of great craftsmanship or unique qualities to keep[ us satisfied, but the world has definitely changed. Thank you Wal-Mart and Chinese markets.

  5. #5
    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    When you produce a product with a useful life of generations and a shrinking market base the only way to generate sales is to make the current user dissatisfied with whatever they're currently using. "New and Improved" have been marketing buzzwords for centuries. It's not evil- its just business.

    I'm actually happy to see some of the new products because even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then and sales are what keeps manufacturers in business producing any product at all.

    There are a lot of small shops making guns in the dozens per year that have impeccable fit and finish and a price tag to match. A lot of them have trouble making ends meet as a money making venture. Dakota has been sold how many times? Kimber is on its second or third iteration as is Cooper. All made guns in the years past that were spiffier than normal fare (I know Kimber slipped as of late, choosing production volume but apparently they're profitable). Pre 64 Winchester still means something 45 years after the fact and Winchester never really quit making guns at all during that time but has been sold several times in the interim and on the verge of collapse a couple of times.

    Any manufacuter has to generate a sales volume to stay in business and a shrinking user base with piles of functional guns left over from yesteryear's generation will be harder pressed to keep shelling out cash for an identical (or likely substandard) version of what they're already using. IMHO "New and Improved" in the rifle world is here to stay.

  6. #6
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    Default lefties

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Heck, I could guarantee them a 20% jump in market share if they'd just put that R&D money into turning out left handed models in a full range of calibers. I've spent enough on rebarreling lefty actions over the years to encourage them that it's a really profitable route.
    With fewer and fewer kids "forced" to be right-handed, will we see a natural shift to more lefties? Have a couple of the more well-known southpaw gun writers (Petzal and Boddington) helped any in this regard? (I heard that rumor on the stainless/laminate Ruger .375)
    Drink indigenous.

  7. #7

    Default

    Interesting topic and good discussion and points from all. I am of the same opinion as Mauserboy and Hodgeman for sure. I know a lot of guys that hunt with rifles every year and very, very few of them are rifle cranks like most of us on this forum. Those guys, not us, represent the mass gun buying market and are the focus of the marketing groups.

    It has always floored me, and still does to this day, that the majority of hunters I know use the rifle only as a tool to get the game during season. Much like I use a hammer when working with wood. They don't practice with them in the off season either. They say they practice, but what they mean by that is they dig out the box of shells they used last year and load up and shoot over the hood of their truck to make sure their scope is still on. I've heard that I don't know how many times... They don't care to have a safe full of them, and can not debate the finer points of CRF vs push feed, etc. Most of them would not even understand my last sentence! These guys have never shot through a chronograph either. Those guys, not us, are the gun buying public from a statistics point of view.

    I have noticed these guys do pay attention to the marketing and tv hunting shows and magazines though. They speak very fondly of 270 and 300 WSM for example, whether they own one or not. Stock is way down for standard 270 and -06 and 300 win mag, because they say the WSM's do it all and more in a shorter, fatter case. They heard/read that somewhere....

    I know one guy who thought he needed to sell his model 70 in -06 and get a 300WSM. He has killed lots of deer and several elk with his -06 and it has never let him down. I asked him why, and his reasoning was that he had seen on tv and read about where it is so much better than -06, and a couple buddys bought them, he thought he better upgrade. I am proud to say I talked him out of it!

    It would be interesting to know sales figures from the major rifle mfg's for say 270 and -06 and 300 win mag before and after they all offered the WSM's too. My assumption is 270 Winchester and 300 Win mag sales are way down since the WSM's came out.

  8. #8
    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozarks View Post
    Interesting topic and good discussion and points from all. I am of the same opinion as Mauserboy and Hodgeman for sure. I know a lot of guys that hunt with rifles every year and very, very few of them are rifle cranks like most of us on this forum. Those guys, not us, represent the mass gun buying market and are the focus of the marketing groups.

    ... They don't care to have a safe full of them, and can not debate the finer points of CRF vs push feed, etc. Most of them would not even understand my last sentence! These guys have never shot through a chronograph either. Those guys, not us, are the gun buying public from a statistics point of view.
    I do not think these guys are the dominant force in the gun market. The hunters I know like that, and there are many of them, own only one hunting rifle and have practically no intentions of buying another. I personally own a few more than that and plan to rebarrel a rifle, restock a couple more and maybe buy another rifle before next season. There are more of those kinds of hunters, but they are one and done kind of rifle buyers. As for myself and others like me, one more is never enough. Always looking for the next project or gun to tinker with and therefore I think the market is kept alive by us rifle cranks rather than the hunters you mentioned even though we are fewer in number. JMO.

  9. #9

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I do not think these guys are the dominant force in the gun market. The hunters I know like that, and there are many of them, own only one hunting rifle and have practically no intentions of buying another. I personally own a few more than that and plan to rebarrel a rifle, restock a couple more and maybe buy another rifle before next season. There are more of those kinds of hunters, but they are one and done kind of rifle buyers. As for myself and others like me, one more is never enough. Always looking for the next project or gun to tinker with and therefore I think the market is kept alive by us rifle cranks rather than the hunters you mentioned even though we are fewer in number. JMO.
    Good point, we may be fewer in number but make up for it by the number of guns we own/buy, so we are a market force to be reckoned with!!!

  10. #10

    Exclamation Supply and Demand???

    So how is the firearms market and pricing going to shift in the future??? They say fewer hunters every year go to the field, so assuming that is true that makes for less firearms demand, right? So new prices will drop???

    So every time one of us old timers that are firearms enthusiasts (for lack of better word) kicks the bucket that makes for one less hunter and now where do all our firearms go??? The market gets flooded? Supply and demand takes over and supply side gets heavy? Prices plummet on used rifles, especially of bread and butter variety and new firearms demand drops due to glut of used???

    Makes me wonder if you will get more gun for your dollar in future years, assuming no restrictive legislation to inflate prices...

    Will Beartooths' wish for better fit and finish and craftsmanship and quality come true with less demand in future?

  11. #11
    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    I'll make a prediction or two and in 50 years someone can buy me a drink and tell me how wrong I was!

    I think you are going to see a shrinking market for new guns. Simply put- guns last too long for an average shooter to destroy one in a long lifetime. Personally I think you will see an expanding market (or maybe a growing market) for "boutique" guns to satisfy the gun cranks like most of us out there. Guns that are semi-custom, full custom and the like- kinda the Kimber (well 5 years ago), Cooper and Dakota. Recent examples are Nosler Custom, Hill Country, and Shaw's new venture. Giving a gun crank something they can't get at just any box store or something for his buddies to "oooh and aaaah" over.

    I think you are going to see the bargain rifles start to disappear along with "bargain hunting". As much as I hate to see it and say it- hunting is going to largely cease to exist for the poor or financially strapped in the next century. Maybe not AK but look at a lot of the Lower 48- friend of mine has a $9000 deer lease in Texas- not something for the financially insolvent. As land becomes locked up it becomes a matter of spend money or wait on some mythical draw tag. No bargain hunting equals no bargain guns. Like it or not guns and hunting are becoming less of a tool/lifestyle and more of a toy/sport for most of the populace.

    I also think older model guns that were well made will continue to have value- ie. that Pre64 mystique thing all over again. Good reason to buy quality today, it will cost a lot more tomorrow. My grandads $12.50 Model 12 (1926) shotgun is worth a lot more than a brand new Rem 870 wingmaster made today.

    I (sadly) think you're going to see a 22nd firearms industry turn into one like Great Britain's. Limited numbers but some real good ones being used by people who've got enough cash to go huntin' and don't shirk at a rifle that costs a month's average wage. Ain't pretty but that's how I see it.

  12. #12
    Member Armymark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    I believe that the majority of gun owners are not necessarily gun "enthusiasts." This doesn't make them bad, or unbelievers, it just means that those of us who have a real passion for firearms, their history, their future, etc. are not the major part of the "paradigm." Most gun owners are consumers who like to target shoot, hunt or just have a firearm, so the market place deals primarily with them. I believe there are still enough cool guns, guns of great craftsmanship or unique qualities to keep[ us satisfied, but the world has definitely changed. Thank you Wal-Mart and Chinese markets.
    I think that there have always been well made firearms and poorly made ones. The spectrum across the board makes the contrast evident. If the market for guns increases the ownership population and hopefully a public more willing to fight for their right to "keep and bear arms" then I think we should be all for it. There are many out there that have not had the benefit of being raised into the gun culture. They will be influenced by the market and its ploys. How else will they learn. I the "old gun crank" often views them as an irritant, so how can a greater appreciation for the gun and its history develope? Some people will buy some form of combat weapon because they feel safer with it or they saw it on some Hollyweird TV show. That person is not going to recognize the the appreciation we have for say my Ruger No.1 with a great wood stock and the ability to stuuf several rounds through the same hole, or perhaps the history of a Sharps rifle. I met a guy several years ago at a range that made it a point to talk to some of the younger people that came out to shoot. He would make an effort to connect and talk about the gun they brought and perhaps swap some knowledge about what he brought. I think the "old gun crank" holds a great responsibility to shooting sports. When I first came into the Army, many young Soldiers would allow their weapon to fall over. Haplessly lean it against a tree and when it fell, it was no big deal except that it might have gotten dirty. I was horrified, I was taught that you make sure you take care so that it doesn't fall over. How do we teach and propagate a sense of appreciation to the people out there that have found an interest through a market, yet lack the enlightened experience of the old sage? Many of these people have no other way to learn. They only know what they have been taught through a magazine story that is merely a well written product endorsement in Outdoor Life or on the Outdoor Channel. Not many people will buy dies with a new gun so they can have that "intimate ballistic relationship" a good rifleman has with his rifle that we see as the complete experience. I watched a guy shoot a full box of .300 WBY and leave the brasss on the ground the other day! Oh my! Yes, the market seems to drive our sport, it is up to us to break it down to the art that it is.

  13. #13

    Default Teach the young

    I think teaching your kids/grandkids nieces, nephews, son-in-laws etc how to hunt and shoot will get their interest up. I have taught my sons how to shoot and they really like shotgun shooting like sporting clays, skeet, and trap. Taught them to shoot rifles and pistols also. I get them guns for birthdays and Christmas. My daughters are also taking an interest and want to conceal carry. I also give reloaded ammo for presents to them. I have done my part. Got grandsons BB guns for Chistmas last year. Got to keep this going.

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