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Thread: Why do we re-invent the wheel?

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    Default Why do we re-invent the wheel?

    WHY DO WE RE-INVENT THE WHEEL?
    THE 338WINCHESTER MAGNUM

    If I could just have a rifle and cartridge that had no more than a 24” barrel, with the receiver no longer than a standard 30-06 length, producing reasonable recoil that could push a 200gr bullet at 3025-3075fps, a 210gr bullet at 2980-3010fps, a 2225gr bullet at 2850 - 2900fps, a 250gr bullet at 2800 - 2820fps, a 275gr bullet at 2670 to 2700fps and a 300gr bullet 2500-2550fps, manufactured by 90% of the major gun companies, WOW!!!

    I could take everything from deer to the largest Alaskan Brown bears. It would not destroy meat anymore on the smaller size big game like white tail deer than would a 130gr bullet out of a 270. It would buck the wind at distances most hunters would consider reasonable and with plenty of energy to anchor anything in North America and most of Africa out to 400yds. Also, with some bullets and loads in the right hands, it could be effective a lot farther than 400yds.

    Of course you know us here in America when it comes to rifles and cartridges, we are constantly re-inventing the wheel. Why do we do this? I am sure you all have your beliefs and even evidence to support your understanding of why this takes place every so often with rifle and cartridge companies. Give us a few more years and there will come the next line of new wonder cartridges and their platforms. Again these will be marketed as being better than what went before or the next best thing to sliced bread. The prevailing attitude will be only the engineers, rifleman, and hunters of today really know what is best as if those in the past were uninformed or miss led or just not as intuitive.

    Why??? It is beyond me why we re-invent the wheel every 5 to 10 years, when there has been one that fits my above description since 1959, the 338Win Mag. Easy to load for, accurate, reasonable recoil if stocked correctly and hits like a hammer, along with velocities that are perfect for the big game bullets manufacture for the .338 caliber. As one friend of mine said, “with the 338Win Mag you could kill everything from mice to Moose and even a big mean spirited bear up close.” He ought to know since he and others have used used the 338Win Mag on the above and so his figurative speech describing the 338Win Mag is appropriate.

    Most you know or at least should know that a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet has been and is very affective in most situations and on most game given proper circumstances much less the 300Win Mag using a 180gr bullet. In light of this fact a 338Win Mag’s using a 250gr bullet, has a striking energy that is around 25% greater than that 30-06 with a 180gr bullet. Also, the 338Win Mag and 300Win Mag along with the 300Wby are in the same neighborhood when it comes to energy. Yet the 338Win Mag's cross-sectional area is 20% greater with a momentum factor that allows for greater penetration due to 70grs greater weight.

    It has tremendous potential as an all around big game cartridge from small deer to the largest and toughest game in North America. It is a tremendous medium bore with great legs. What do I mean by saying great legs. It is a true sprinter with endurance and has a hard quick crushing blow, that hits like a heavy weight. There is a great selection of suitable bullets from 180grs to 300grs to meet any scenario. With this selection of bullets, one could imagine them selves in a sequence of possible events as a North American hunter and feel with confidence that they were well armed. It can be down loaded to 338RCM, 338-06 or 30-06 levels and still produce excellent accuracy attesting to it's real versatility.


    On smaller species of big game we have with the 338Win Mag 180gr to 225gr bullets. In this weight class there is the 210gr Nosler Partition, that is good on smaller game, while being the exception in this group due to the fact it is also highly effective on the larger species of big game. The 210gr Partition with velocities between 2980fps and 3010fps with very good accuracy is a flat shooting, hard hitting combination that really allows the 338Win Mag to stand out as a longer rang load while still being devastating up close.

    Of course for the really big stuff the 250gr due to the great bullet shapes available is a real game getter for sure. The 250gr to 300gr bullets in the 338Win Mag do not have to apologize, nor are they inferior for any of the tasks handed them when taking big game.

    I had to pick up my 338Win Mag which I had stored away after only firing 15 rounds through it because I was so busy with other projects, namely my 257-300Wby. As I said, I am using it to hunt with this year due to problems with two of my rifles, my 30-06 and my 300Wby. I have owned and shot the 338Win Mag some 20 years ago but did not hunt with it nor reload for it. Well, I am doing both this year and that is why I have written this article. I am beginning to discover what some great hunters and guides have known for years about the 338Win Mag and I really like what I have found so far in briefly reloading for the 338Win mag.

    Looking forward to using it in the field and have the experience of taking game with a fine Medium bore cartridge.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  2. #2
    Member moses42ak's Avatar
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    Well said beartooth!

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Yep everyone brags about their new 3xx whopper stoppers and tells of the great results and speeds useing bullets that are even on the light side for the lowly 308.Its Roy Weatherby all over again except now he don't even get the credit.Take the old 300H&H 200gr. 2,800fps,300winmag 200gr.2,900fps and the 300wbymag 50fps quicker than the winmag.All that effort with little results.
    This month we had a story of a young lady takeing her first Brownie with her .243 one shot and overwith. We have also had stories of folks shooting their new super round takeing three rounds to do the same thing on lesser game. You can build all the new fancy hammers you want but none will do better than the one my Gramps pounded nails with.I will say the nails today(last fifty years) are better general quaility wise for the average shooter

  4. #4

    Default But without

    the new "bigger, faster, better" cartridges, would we ever buy new rifles??
    I don't think it is a coincidence that arms manufacturers are so involved with new cartridge development.
    Mike
    Mike
    www.alaskaatvclub.org
    There is a faster way off the mountain, might hurt a little though.

  5. #5
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Yes and we would give our old ones to our childred and grandchildred. Of course in many cases we would then end up trying to trade our new one to them for our old one.

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    No one needs more than a 6.5x55.

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    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildalaska View Post
    No one needs more than a 6.5x55.
    Finally, something we agree totally upon.

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    A heck of a nice article, Beartooth!

    I juts love my .338WM rifle. Mine is not an expensive one, but it has been very reliable and lucky (has brought me a lot of meat to the table). Its a Ruger M77 MK II stainless, which sits on a Hogue Rubber-Overmolded stock (yes, I am cheap) The scope is an older model Leupold matte Vary-X III 2.5-8x, and has a Timney trigger. It's not a target rifle, but it always shoots straight when clean and cold. Those first three shots always hit the 100-yard mark within 1-1/2" without much effort, and right at +1-1/2" over the center. From a solid rest it usually prints three shots within a inch or so, but I rarely fire it more than once when hunting moose, and have only recovered two or three bullets from moose. Most pass right through.

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    Good read - they had it right a long time ago and I still hunt with it today - Pre 64 Model 70 Winchester in 338 Win Mag - Wouldn't trade it for any other rifle.

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    You are right, for the American Continent he 338 is more than adequate and I like mine. I wish that Winchester had chambered for the 358Norma instead of reinventing the wheel when they came out with the 338.

  11. #11

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    A great literary work BT! It almost brought tears to my eyes like the 30.06 thread All kiddin aside, the 338 WM is a great cartridge but far be it from me to let your boat list too far to one side... we need a little counter weight eh?


    So then, what cartridge isn't a great cartridge? Especially if it's the one you hunt with... or hunted with most of your life. Or the one your dad gave you as your first rifle or the first rilfe you bought, in my case the good ole .243 which has taken every game animal in NA.


    There have been some comments about the bigger, better and faster cartridges and the new 3xx whopper stoppers, but isn't that exactley what the 338 WM was 51 years ago when it was intriduced toi the shooting world? so how old is the good ole 338 WM? Younger than you and I and a lot of others in this forum.


    Well over 90% of the cartridges on the shelf today have evloved over the last 100 years. That aint really long in the big picture of history. What gives them credibility and value? The fact they were here first or before another cartridge? Is the 30.06 a better 30 cal cartridge than the 300 WSM because it was here first or becuase it can propell a 180 gr bullet faster than a 300 WSM? Oh, but the 300 WSM can propell that bullet faster than the 30.06. But the 30.06 has less recoil and who needs to shoot the 180 faster anyway? Hmmmm..... which has more recoil... the 338 WM or the 300 WSM??? Well never mind about that, the 338 WM is just the good ole 338 WM and that's good enough.


    Am I dissing the 338 WM? Not at all! It is what it is... nothing less and nothing more. Tthe case and cartridge are defined by SAAMI specs and you can expect "X" velocity with "Y" bullets and "Z" powder. Its parent case is the 458 WM.


    The 338 WM is a fine cartridge amd will serve Mike well, more because of Mike's skills than any inherent superiority of the cartridge.


    Have a great season with the ole safe queen BT


    Ohhhhh... and why do we re-invet the wheel??? Because it's fun!!! Just like the thought of something new and different like say a 6.5-300 Wthby


    I cant wiat till the next whopper stopper gun comes out!!!!!!!

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I could get by very easy anywhere in the world with just rounds over a hundred years old and for hunting I do.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post


    The 338 WM is a fine cartridge amd will serve Mike well, more because of Mike's skills than any inherent superiority of the cartridge.

    Thank you for the compliment but in all humility the 338Win mag will make me look good.


    Have a great season with the ole safe queen BT

    Thanks I really will have a great season by just being outdoors.


    Ohhhhh... and why do we re-invet the wheel??? Because it's fun!!! Just like the thought of something new and different like say a 6.5-300 Wthby

    Yes, it was a thought and then I came to my senses and went with what was already proven and lasted the test of men and time, the 300Wby.


    I cant wiat till the next whopper stopper gun comes out!!!!!!!


    I can't wait either to see the next best thing to sliced will be bread
    .

    I hope you have a great season also
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    I could get by very easy anywhere in the world with just rounds over a hundred years old and for hunting I do.
    I have found that some of those 100-year old rounds are aften too corroded or the powder has degraded to function properly in my rifles.

  15. #15

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    Beartooth,

    I agree with everything you said about the 338 WM, although for me, being a .35 cal fan, I'll agree with rbuck351 and apply all that praise to a cartridge that pre-dates the 338 by a year and choose the .358 Norma.

    It does everything you said about the 338 and has the added benefit of being able to use .38 cal handgun bullets for cheap plinking and low power loads for smaller game.

    I built my first custom rifle last year in .358 Norma and have just about decided that I never need anything else. Although I have a strong desire to build it a brother in .358 Winchester (thanks in part to all your recent posts on your experience with that round). That would be a pair hard to beat in my book.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by evandailey View Post
    Beartooth,

    I agree with everything you said about the 338 WM, although for me, being a .35 cal fan, I'll agree with rbuck351 and apply all that praise to a cartridge that pre-dates the 338 by a year and choose the .358 Norma.

    It does everything you said about the 338 and has the added benefit of being able to use .38 cal handgun bullets for cheap plinking and low power loads for smaller game.

    I built my first custom rifle last year in .358 Norma and have just about decided that I never need anything else. Although I have a strong desire to build it a brother in .358 Winchester (thanks in part to all your recent posts on your experience with that round). That would be a pair hard to beat in my book.
    Yes, that truly would be a pair that would be hard to beat indeed. I wonder if I will come to that conclusion about my 358Win and my 338Win mag this year after using them in the field. Good possibility in light of their attributes.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  17. #17

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    They are playing to the young progressive type that really believe change is better, and new is wonderful and better. I am glad they have new stuff but at the neglect of the already proven stuff is a sore with me. They have also been told that these newer cartridges are more accurate.

    Well I would agree to folks liking new stuff but none of the new cartridges hold accuracy records and the 300WSM ain't going to set the 1000yd record or win as many times if at all as the old belted cartridges do and it is a belted cartridge that holds the world accuracy at 1000yds.

    And I would put my old 358Win one of the first short cartridges and my 7mmSTW a belted cartridge up against any of the new cartridges for accuracy. And we have not even mentioned the 7mm mag and the accuracy of that belted cartridge much less the 300Win mag, the 308 and the 300wby.

    New, short, fat don't mean it is better or more accurate. Now I agree with that all those progressive types can just buy away and get what they want and I am glad I live some where that a man can own the rifle and cartridge he likes. But most of the new stuff does not improve anything in practical terms and in some cases are not an improvement at all.

    Now a 260, 308, 30-06, 257Wby, 7mm mag, 7mmSTW, 358Win, 300Wby, 375Wby, that I would put up against any of the new cartridges when it comes to accuracy at short or long range. I have owned three of the new fat things and don't anymore because they were not faster or more accurate than anything I all ready had. I think I know how to get accuracy and velocity out of a cartridge much less be able to shoot them well.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  18. #18
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    Although the .338Win is a fine and proven round, I am also a 35cal fan. I now have a 358N, 350Rem Mag and a 35 Rem. I suppose a 358Win would fill that gap nicely and I,ve been wondering what to do with that old FN Mauser action I have. I'll also be needing a 92win in 357. There's just no end to this madness.
    All that and I usually hunt with a 300H&H. Go figure. It's a wonder game will even die when shot with such an archaic round. I guess I'll keep using it until the bullets start bouncing off of critters. By then maybe they will have shortened a 50BMG to 1 1/2" and necked it to 29 cal and we'll have super extra short really really fat rounds. How could it get any better than that?
    Why do we keep reinventing the wheel? Because some folks just can't leave well enough alone.

  19. #19

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    Besides being a .35 Cal. fan, I am also a Mauser fan. I built my .358 Norma on a Charles Daly Mauser action. I absolutely love that rifle.

    While there is another Charles Daly that has been sitting in a local gunshop for a long time and I think I could get a deal on it, for some reason I keep wanting to buy an old military action to build a .358 Win. and do all the updating myself. The work is most of the fun anyway for me.

  20. #20

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    They are playing to the young progressive type that really believe change is better, and new is wonderful and better. I am glad they have new stuff but at the neglect of the already proven stuff is a sore with me. They have also been told that these newer cartridges are more accurate.

    I think you make a good point but... I dont think you could call me (and I know you're not calling me anything) young and progressive. I might not have quite as many gray hairs as you, but I'm not far behind. I like to be as objective and open minded as possible. I think there's always a way to make a better mouse trap.


    I'm not sure I agree that the new stuff is necessarily at the expense and neglect of the already proven stuff and whether or not a certain cartridge might be more accurate than another is an interesting thought but I'm not sure it could be proven. maybe it could, but I doubt any nuetral party would put the effort in finding out. With the almost infinite possble combinations of powders, primers and bullets it would be a daunting task.


    I think the biggest factors in accuracy are the precision and quality craftsmanship behind the rifle and the guy or gal breaking the trigger and the quality of the load and how well it matches the rifle.


    Well I would agree to folks liking new stuff but none of the new cartridges hold accuracy records and the 300WSM ain't going to set the 1000yd record or win as many times if at all as the old belted cartridges do and it is a belted cartridge that holds the world accuracy at 1000yds.

    Well... the new guys on the block haven't been around that long, just give'em a little time


    And I would put my old 358Win one of the first short cartridges and my 7mmSTW a belted cartridge up against any of the new cartridges for accuracy. And we have not even mentioned the 7mm mag and the accuracy of that belted cartridge much less the 300Win mag, the 308 and the 300wby.

    How about against my 300 RUM Sendero up here at the Logan range. Looser buys dinner at the Beartooth BBQ in W Yellowstone... hope I loose... but I doubt it


    New, short, fat don't mean it is better or more accurate. Now I agree with that all those progressive types can just buy away and get what they want and I am glad I live some where that a man can own the rifle and cartridge he likes. But most of the new stuff does not improve anything in practical terms and in some cases are not an improvement at all.

    I think there are some advantages (including pratical) to the short fat guys, but that's a different thread.


    Now a 260, 308, 30-06, 257Wby, 7mm mag, 7mmSTW, 358Win, 300Wby, 375Wby, that I would put up against any of the new cartridges when it comes to accuracy at short or long range. I have owned three of the new fat things and don't anymore because they were not faster or more accurate than anything I all ready had. I think I know how to get accuracy and velocity out of a cartridge much less be able to shoot them well.
    Well... there are a couiple of smiths that I know of that make some real accurate rifles in whatever cartridge and caliber, and a local guy as well has been doing some good work. Maybe one of these days I'll get a good 300 WSM trued up off of a Sako action with a good aluminum bedded stock and match grade custom barrel and we can have some fun

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