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Thread: Long Range shooting

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    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Default Long Range shooting

    MY question is: For long Range shooting (500-750 yards) would you go with short or long action? Is there an advantage of one over the other, I'm still learning this stuff but i would like to tinker around and work up some loads.


    My next question: Also for long range shooting, of the three types of bullets, which would you prefer? Barnes, Berger, or Sierra Game Kings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahahawai View Post
    My next question: Also for long range shooting, of the three types of bullets, which would you prefer? Barnes, Berger, or Sierra Game Kings?

    Whatever shoots best

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildalaska View Post
    Whatever shoots best

    I shot barnes and Sierra Game kings, but not the Berger, just thought they might be better bullets considering all the hype on them.

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    Targets or animals? If it was anything bigger than a wolf I wouldn't bother with Bergers.

    Most of the long range rounds that are popular now will fit in a short action. There is a thought that short actions are stiffer, but there are still a bunch of really accurate rifles built on long actions.
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    The guys from Gunwerks and Best of the West make there living on long range shooting (out to 900 yards on big game and even further) and one of there favorite rounds is the 6.5-284 with a 140 berger...

    ....I have seen them on film harvest elk, bear, and sheep out to 940 yards with this round.
    375 Ruger Hawkeye...Mice to Moose, Impala to Buffalo....1 GUN.....WORLDS PURSUIT

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    Default I like the Bergers

    I have been using 140 Berger VLDs in my 6.5x55 for several years at almost 2800 fps muzzle velocity for deer size game. Last year I shot two does in NC (110 & 95 pounds respectively) with one shot at 347 laser rangefinder yards; complete penetration on both animals. The bullet went through the first deer's shoulder blades-entry and exit; she ran about 50 feet and dropped. Doe #2 was hit through the slats and fell in her tracks. It was an accident that I shot two deer at once; late in the evening and I simply didn't see the second doe. My greater point is that the Berger gave significant penetration, especially when you consider that the second doe had a pass through with an expanded bullet at entry. They are probably a little brittle for close shots at high velocity, but at LR where velocity has dropped they provide very good results. I attribute this to the long secant ogive that retards initial expansion until several inches of penetration has been realized as well as the fact that the high b.c. Bergers are heavy for caliber. For LR shooting they just plain work.

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    1 Cor15:19, what are your loads for that Berger 140, and what kind of groups does it shoot? I shoot a 6.5 Swede, and am always looking for new twists on an old barrel. I also thought the Bergers were too hard for hunting applications. Maybe not.

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    Default Bergers

    You'd better be shoulder shooting whatever you're wanting to kill AND find. Same goes for the Barnes TSX from what I'm hearing.

    Not saying they're bad bullets, not one bit. Only that the reports I'm getting AND what the guys at Gunwerks are saying is that they need solid bone contact.

    I'm not opposed to shoulder shooting, frankly it's my favorite especially if I can get both of them. Don't lose much meat, and it makes tracking really easy.

    And no, I don't shoot berger or barnes. Tried Barnes, gun didn't like them. No reason to try the bergers as mine shoot just fine.

    As far as short vs long action..... no help here. I have both and they'll each give the other a run for the money any day of the week. If I was building something new to AT&T something..... I'd look real hard at the 7mmWSM or get really weird and build a 6.5-25wssm for long barrel life and from the reports I'm getting...... Winchester shoulda made it part of their short fat offerings.
    Last edited by rdklinak; 09-21-2009 at 22:26. Reason: adding txt

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kahahawai View Post
    MY question is: For long Range shooting (500-750 yards) would you go with short or long action? Is there an advantage of one over the other, I'm still learning this stuff but i would like to tinker around and work up some loads.

    First bit of advice is to go to the Long Range Hunting site. This site is probably one of the best on the net for general all around gun and shooting knowledge and info, but it isn't a LR shooting site. The favorite cartridge here is the 30-06, but not at all the top pick among the long rangers, probably not even on the top 30 sorry guys... I just could not resist that. If you were having heart problems, you would see a cardiologist and not a general practitionor.


    http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/


    The way the length of action might affect LR shooting capability is size of cartridge. In general, the larger the cartridge, the more potential it will have as a long range cartridge. The big 338's (not the 338 WM) are the most popular/effective down range killers because they buck wind very well and deliver a lot of thump on target at extended ranges. The 375 is not a popular choice because it just doesn't have the good, high BC bullets the 408 CT and 50 cals are just a little too big for practicle hunting but are good LR cartridges. and then there are all the wildcats...



    OK, so back to the action. There are a few short action rounds that will reach to 750 yds or maybe a little more, but very few that are 1K game killers. The WSM's would fall into this category. The 308 and 7mm-08 typically limit out to about 600 yds or so. The 243 is stretching beyond 500 yds.



    My next question: Also for long range shooting, of the three types of bullets, which would you prefer? Barnes, Berger, or Sierra Game Kings?

    This is a very good question and there are two angles you need to consider it from. External ballistics and terminal balistics.


    First, external ballistics. The two most import factors are BC and velocity in that very close order. The higher the BC and velocity the better it will buck wind (THE most critical variable in LR) and the more it will retain its velocity nd energy/momentum. Let's use a hypothetical example... If you have a 22 cal bullet weighing 30 gr and a 338 cal bullet weighing 300 gr and they both had the same MV and BC, they would both arrive on target, 1000 yds down range, at the same time, same trajectory/drop, and same wind drift. Well a 22 cal bullet in reality will never have the same BC as a 300 gr SMK and will get blown all over the place if it ever even reaches the target. Point being, size and weight are not direct determiners of external/down range ballistics. It's the shape that the size and weigth are packaged in that is the key.

    Second, terminal ballistics. there are a lot of different bullets that function differently on impact. One of the most important things to consider is down range velocity on impact. Most expanding bullets open down to about 1800 fps and this is what I would call their max effective velocity/range. These include most Bergers, Barnes and Noslers. The Hornady A-Max opens down below 1600 fps and Sierra does not advertise an expanding velocity for their Match Kings due to their military contract which calls for non-expanding bullets. They are believed ot expand at less than 1700 fps.

    Next, some bullets are highly frangible explosive bullets, like the Bergers. A-Max and NBT are also highly frangible. These bullets tend to do a lot of damage and are quite often effective killers. However their performance is more inconsistant than other more controlled expansion bullets overall. Next you have various thicker jacketed non-bonded bullets like soft points. They expand quickly will often loose as much as half their mass, give or take. They are usually low BC bullets and for practical purposes, never considered for LR. Next are the bonded bullets like the NAB's. NAB's have fairly good BC and are popular among the long rangers. They will loose some mass, but usually retain most of it. Good pentrators and usually leave a good exit wound. Finally, are the monometals. They usually retain almost all their weight and sometimes will shed petals at higher velocities. The two most well known ones are the Barnes TSX/TTSX and the Nosler E-Tip's. The Barnes have a fair BC and the E-Tips heave a little better BC.


    To answer your questions a little more directly, I would pick a long action/large cartridge (300 RUM) and a wel made controlled expansion bullet (Nosler E-Tip or AB)


    Hope this helps,


    -MR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    1 Cor15:19, what are your loads for that Berger 140, and what kind of groups does it shoot? I shoot a 6.5 Swede, and am always looking for new twists on an old barrel. I also thought the Bergers were too hard for hunting applications. Maybe not.
    Sent you a PM.

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