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Thread: Why the hang up with penetration????

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    Default Why the hang up with penetration????

    What's the point of putting your bullet right through something?
    It's wasted energy that isn't put to use stopping the animal, instead it's used to carry your bullet down range further than you need it to go. Personally I think people need to forget penetration as a measure of how effective their chosen calibre/weapon is and focus instead on used energy, or energy transfer, other wise you may as well be firing solid steel bullets, they'll go straight through and zip away down range leaving a nice little hole right through an animal but they don't impart half as much shock or do as much damage as a nicely mushroomed bullet that's sitting under the skin or in the internals of an animal.
    If you want penetration buy or make armour piercing rounds, if you want shock and knock down then buy something that's going to make a decent wound channel that is cone shaped, i.e. thin at entry and getting bigger as it goes deeper.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Here most talk of penetration is for big bears and takeing out both front shoulders and everything in between.In this case its better to go through than dump everything a foot in.We are talking 1/2" holes to start with not tiny holes.

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    Default That's all fine and good

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Here most talk of penetration is for big bears and takeing out both front shoulders and everything in between.In this case its better to go through than dump everything a foot in.We are talking 1/2" holes to start with not tiny holes.
    But a 1/2 inch hole in and a 1 inch hole out works better than a 1/2 inch hole out and so does a 1/2 inch hole in and a 1 inch wound channel through the vitals, be it brain or heart/lungs etc.
    Seriously, it's a proven fact that energy transfer and shock are killers and are far more effective than just letting holes in both sides of any animal. Besides which if you're aiming at the front shoulders side on then it's hardly a charging bear that's hell bent on mowing you down, which is why so many claim to need these big penetrating rounds.

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    Default Shock vs pass through

    I am not sure of the consequences of the bullet staying inside the animal, which is what I equate to the full energy of the bullet shocking the animal. I really prefer a bullet to mushroom and exiting. I always try for a double lung shot and then have a real good exit hole.

    This may not be the perfect case in some situations; sheep or goats that you want to anchor, or a bear that you don't want to chase into the thick stuff.. the bear I would still like two holes and as much damage inside as possible.

    If shock is your main goal with your bullet, how do you keep it from going through? I've had very few not pass through and it is the off side shoulder that has stopped it.

    What about the non-shock of an arrow? They rely on cutting vitals as does a bullet, although the bullet does have added shock.

    Just some opinions from my side, would like to hear more about the shock vs. pass through. Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by maarty View Post
    But a 1/2 inch hole in and a 1 inch hole out works better than a 1/2 inch hole out and so does a 1/2 inch hole in and a 1 inch wound channel through the vitals, be it brain or heart/lungs etc.
    Seriously, it's a proven fact that energy transfer and shock are killers and are far more effective than just letting holes in both sides of any animal. Besides which if you're aiming at the front shoulders side on then it's hardly a charging bear that's hell bent on mowing you down, which is why so many claim to need these big penetrating rounds.
    Penetration is very important on big (especially dangerous) game, but it's become fassionable to completely disregard energy transfer principles here in the U.S.

    Personally, I don't get it:


    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=62564


    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...t=39055&page=3


    Energy kills. It's science. Of course, you must have sufficient penetration. From the countless sources I have read, a 338 Win Mag or 340 Wby Mag with solid bullets (e.g., Barnes TSX) will penetrate clean through most bears. AND they deposit a huge amount of energy (mangling muscle, bone, and blood vessels) along the way. It a win-win concept. Sufficient Penetration + Massive Energy is better than Sufficient Penetration + Moderate Energy. I have personally witnessed this application of science on various mammals. Sadly, I have witnessed (after the fact) many times the destructive effect of high-volocity 30-cal bullets on human targets. The effect of a 2,900 fps 30-cal bullet is far greater than that from any handgun (penetration aside). Energy kills.

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    I think the point is that with 99% of handguns they come nowhere near having the velocity/energy as a rifle. So, heavy for caliber bullet say a 360gr 45 caliber + 1100-1300fps = penetration which = bone and tissue destruction.

    Different physics with high powered rifles though.

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    Default Not such a small exit hole

    Actually, one of the wide meplat hard cast bullets in 44 cal;iber and larger are proven to creat wound channels and exit wounds that are larger than their caliber. For whatever reason, a wide flat nose causes more tissue damage than you might think.

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    I've seen enough dead stuff to know what kills and under what conditions bullets work.Personaly I don't like tracking blood trails or watching the game run like they do when lung shot so I end it best I can on the spot.Then again I've only been takeing out dangerous game sence 66 and might now have a clue and just been lucky

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    Your long skinny pointy bullet to get the penetration is the problem. It doesn't do any tissue damage to speak of, whether in a handgun or a rifle. I've taken a lot of game with handguns using a wide variety of bullets, as well as with a wide range of rifles using a wide range of bullet styles. As Snyd says, you're not dealing with the same power levels.

    In handguns, there's a tradeoff between penetration and expansion. If a bullet expands much it isn't going far. I've shot deer with round nose bullets in 45 ACP, 9mm and 38 special. They penetrated like hell, but killed slowly. Expanding bullets were so-so unless you were shooting absolutely broadside and the bullet managed to make it through to the hide onthe far side.

    Hard cast bullets with large meplats tear up a lot of tissue along the way, yet penetrate well. My big beef with the 45 and 9mm was the unavailability of bullets in that profile that still fed reliably in a semi. I whacked a couple of deer with the ACP in a Ruger convertible, but loaded with revolver bullets of that profile. Indistinguishable from the 45 Colt at similar velocities. Load an ACP bullet in a 45 colt case, and you wouldn't know it from the ACP-- and that's bad. Interesting enough, the 38 special loaded to standard velocities with hard cast semiwadcutters having large meplats is a MUCH better killer than the 45 ACP ball round. It tears up a whole lot of tissue while penetrating well.

    I've done a buncha hunting with traditional muzzleloaders in recent years. All killing inside 50 yards with pure lead round balls at velocities in the 1400-1800 range, depending on caliber. Those round balls expand like crazy, flattening to resemble a quarter or a half dollar along the way. And they really mush up the innards. But interesting things happen when comparing shots that penetrate fully with those that don't. Those that penetrate fully always kill faster. I'm guessing they bleed out faster or more air gets into the innards or something. But I can almost tell when the smoke clears whether I got complete penetration or not. If the game absorbed all that shock and the ball failed to penetrate completely, I've usually got a tracking job on my hands. If the game is laying there dead on the spot with four feet in the air, it's usually a full penetration. Same gun, same load.


    Yeah, there's physics involved, but also physiology. If the full penetration doesn't include lots of tissue damage, it's not going to kill well. If the bullet sticks in the game and transfers all the energy, it's not necessarily going to kill better if it doesn't carry the damage all the way through the animal. If the round tears up a goodly amount of tissue all the way through, plus leaves two good holes for bleeding or air entry or whatever, that animal isn't going far.

    I'll take the right mix of good tissue damage and penetration any day over a full stop of the bullet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maarty View Post
    Seriously, it's a proven fact that energy transfer and shock are killers and are far more effective than just letting holes in both sides of any animal. Besides which if you're aiming at the front shoulders side on then it's hardly a charging bear that's hell bent on mowing you down, which is why so many claim to need these big penetrating rounds.
    I do not believe that much is proven concerning "killing power." I am not a scientist, an engineer or mathematician, but those that are report that kinetic energy (KE) translates or is used in the destruction of living animal tissue to develop heat energy, to deform the bullet and the object hit, to create noise, break bone, penetrate tissue among other things. This is pretty well all that is certain in the application of KE to killing power. There are numerous theories on "killing power," some better than others, but they are all theories not established scientific fact.

    I for one always want adequate penetration with maximum wound cavity. In a handgun, solid bullets are the only bullets that can guarantee adequate penetration for any necessary shot. In the case of most centerfire rifle cartridges this is not the case as there is no need to have as much penetration as a solid will produce in living tissue on most game animals. I will add this last thought though, so long as a bullet will expand and create an increase over bore diameter in the permanent wound cavity I have not witnessed any reason to not want complete penetration. I generally prefer maximum expansion with adequate penetration but too many bullets will not provide adequate penetration when they exhibit maximum expansion. Without adequate penetration into vital organs or the breaking of the skeletal structure big game animals are not killed cleanly, if at all, regardless of how much KE a cartridge possesses or can deliver to a game animal, IME.

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    Heres the deal in Alaska. Say you main goal is moose but caribou are also around.Add in you might just get a chance at a nice color griz or run into some wolf that take their toll on calfs. No bullet you carry will be ideal on all the game you may take on this trip.Sure you can carry a few different types of bullets and keep up with what is in your gun or do like most and carry what will take a moose clean.On the flip side you are just hunting blacktail on one of the islands ( more 243 sold on Wrangell than anything else) but there are big brown bear always around and in close timber and short ranges the 243 ain't a real stopper with you light dear bullets.Some of us but for sure not everyone likes to carry a big handgun with big solid bullits for stopping this bear.The 243 will for sure dump all it engery in the bear,maybe the first shoulder with little effect where I expect my 454 with 340gr JDJ hardcase bullits to at least reach the other side and should in fact go all the way through causeing abig wound channel from busted bone as the bullet blew through the first shoulder. Note the worst that can happen is another story for Sports Afield or Outdoor Life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maarty View Post
    What's the point of putting your bullet right through something?
    It's wasted energy that isn't put to use stopping the animal, instead it's used to carry your bullet down range further than you need it to go. Personally I think people need to forget penetration as a measure of how effective their chosen calibre/weapon is and focus instead on used energy, or energy transfer, other wise you may as well be firing solid steel bullets, they'll go straight through and zip away down range leaving a nice little hole right through an animal but they don't impart half as much shock or do as much damage as a nicely mushroomed bullet that's sitting under the skin or in the internals of an animal.
    If you want penetration buy or make armour piercing rounds, if you want shock and knock down then buy something that's going to make a decent wound channel that is cone shaped, i.e. thin at entry and getting bigger as it goes deeper.

    I'm going to pick on ya a little here so bear with me.

    Tell me this just how much do you want your bullet to penetrate and where do you want it to stop? How do you tell it to do that? What do you want the bullet to do and how is it that your bullets can guarantee a clean kill with just the right amount of penetration???

    How does this waste of enegy effect anything? What is this shock you speak of and what happens to a super penetrating bullet that is fired at the vitals? Does it do any damage? How does a non expanding spear do any damage?

    Your statements speaks of little experience afield. It seems you've never wounded an animal because the bullet failed to reach the vitals, good for you. If you don't want penetration what do you think kills the aniimal? This shock? No animal can survive a hit to the vitals if the bullet exits. Many are wounded with the same hit when the bullet fails to penetrate to the vitals.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I do not believe that much is proven concerning "killing power." I am not a scientist, an engineer or mathematician, but those that are report that kinetic energy (KE) translates or is used in the destruction of living animal tissue to develop heat energy, to deform the bullet and the object hit, to create noise, break bone, penetrate tissue among other things. This is pretty well all that is certain in the application of KE to killing power. There are numerous theories on "killing power," some better than others, but they are all theories not established scientific fact.

    I for one always want adequate penetration with maximum wound cavity. In a handgun, solid bullets are the only bullets that can guarantee adequate penetration for any necessary shot. In the case of most centerfire rifle cartridges this is not the case as there is no need to have as much penetration as a solid will produce in living tissue on most game animals. I will add this last thought though, so long as a bullet will expand and create an increase over bore diameter in the permanent wound cavity I have not witnessed any reason to not want complete penetration. I generally prefer maximum expansion with adequate penetration but too many bullets will not provide adequate penetration when they exhibit maximum expansion. Without adequate penetration into vital organs or the breaking of the skeletal structure big game animals are not killed cleanly, if at all, regardless of how much KE a cartridge possesses or can deliver to a game animal, IME.
    I agree fully and very well said.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Since we're talking handguns here the amount of energy and "shock" we're discussing is really quite small compared to rifles and animals can soak up a lot of energy from a rifle before expiring- much less from a handgun. A friend of mine hit his moose this year in the nose head on at 50yds, the bullet lodged under the brain after totally wrecking everything in the sinuses with no exit (a 180 Partition with 60% weight retention upon recovery) and this bull stayed on his feet for several minutes and took two more to the lungs before expiring. So this guy took basically all the energy from a .300 WM in the head and stayed on his feet. Even a .44 will have a fractional amount of "shock" compared to this event.

    A similar shot with a 30-06 and a plodding 220 RN with less expansion and the bull would have likely been DRT because of the penetration. Another friend last year with a similar shot last year hit a cow in the nose, the bullet passed clean through the nose, sinuses, under the brain and broke its neck before exiting- its still going yet for all anyone knows but the cow was dead before it fell. Dumping energy and causing trauma is good, but penetration gets it where it will do you some good.

    With a handgun I'll take penetration over rapid expansion because its all you've got. A flat meplat gives whats perhaps the best compromise but nothing's perfect.

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    [QUOTE=BrownBear;576025]Your long skinny pointy bullet to get the penetration is the problem. It doesn't do any tissue damage to speak of, whether in a handgun or a rifle. I've taken a lot of game with handguns using a wide variety of bullets, as well as with a wide range of rifles using a wide range of bullet styles. As Snyd says, you're not dealing with the same power levels.

    In handguns, there's a tradeoff between penetration and expansion. If a bullet expands much it isn't going far. I've shot deer with round nose bullets in 45 ACP, 9mm and 38 special. They penetrated like hell, but killed slowly. Expanding bullets were so-so unless you were shooting absolutely broadside and the bullet managed to make it through to the hide onthe far side.

    Hard cast bullets with large meplats tear up a lot of tissue along the way, yet penetrate well. My big beef with the 45 and 9mm was the unavailability of bullets in that profile that still fed reliably in a semi. I whacked a couple of deer with the ACP in a Ruger convertible, but loaded with revolver bullets of that profile. Indistinguishable from the 45 Colt at similar velocities. Load an ACP bullet in a 45 colt case, and you wouldn't know it from the ACP-- and that's bad. Interesting enough, the 38 special loaded to standard velocities with hard cast semiwadcutters having large meplats is a MUCH better killer than the 45 ACP ball round. It tears up a whole lot of tissue while penetrating well.

    I've done a buncha hunting with traditional muzzleloaders in recent years. All killing inside 50 yards with pure lead round balls at velocities in the 1400-1800 range, depending on caliber. Those round balls expand like crazy, flattening to resemble a quarter or a half dollar along the way. And they really mush up the innards. But interesting things happen when comparing shots that penetrate fully with those that don't. Those that penetrate fully always kill faster. I'm guessing they bleed out faster or more air gets into the innards or something. But I can almost tell when the smoke clears whether I got complete penetration or not. If the game absorbed all that shock and the ball failed to penetrate completely, I've usually got a tracking job on my hands. If the game is laying there dead on the spot with four feet in the air, it's usually a full penetration. Same gun, same load.


    Yeah, there's physics involved, but also physiology. If the full penetration doesn't include lots of tissue damage, it's not going to kill well. If the bullet sticks in the game and transfers all the energy, it's not necessarily going to kill better if it doesn't carry the damage all the way through the animal. If the round tears up a goodly amount of tissue all the way through, plus leaves two good holes for bleeding or air entry or whatever, that animal isn't going far.

    I'll take the right mix of good tissue damage and penetration any day over a full stop of the bullet.[/QUOTE
    Seems to me that if your shooting a pistol penetration would be first on my list at all costs. Even if its my right leg as long as the dang bear eventually dies. I wouldnt ever want to compromize expansion for penetration in a handgun in a bear defence situation. If the bullet doesnt penetrate far enuff you might as well throw a rock at the bear. With the rifle you have 2 situations. Either more velocity that equals penetration and expansion (depending on bullet choice) at close range from more velocity and bullet weight. Or in a hunting situation where things are more controlled and you have suited your caliber and bullet and velocity for that situation.

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    Default Here's the thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I'm going to pick on ya a little here so bear with me.

    Tell me this just how much do you want your bullet to penetrate and where do you want it to stop? How do you tell it to do that? What do you want the bullet to do and how is it that your bullets can guarantee a clean kill with just the right amount of penetration???

    How does this waste of enegy effect anything? What is this shock you speak of and what happens to a super penetrating bullet that is fired at the vitals? Does it do any damage? How does a non expanding spear do any damage?

    Your statements speaks of little experience afield. It seems you've never wounded an animal because the bullet failed to reach the vitals, good for you. If you don't want penetration what do you think kills the aniimal? This shock? No animal can survive a hit to the vitals if the bullet exits. Many are wounded with the same hit when the bullet fails to penetrate to the vitals.
    So many of you talk about how the .44 mag isn't enough gun, then you get the guys who say a .454 isn't enough gun, they all talk about penetration as though it is the only factor involved in killing an animal but there is more to it than that.
    All this talk seems to me just a "My xxxx is bigger than yours" competition, especially when you are telling someone with limited experience that they need bigger and bigger guns. Where does it stop? "Hell I took the wheels off an artillery piece and drag it round, anything less isn't enough gun for a genuine big backwoods he-man"
    You're right of course, no animal can survive a hit to the vitals if the bullet exits but I also know of many deer over here shot with ex military FMJ ammo that were never recovered due to the bullet imparting less damage despite passing right through the vitals.
    As for a spear it kills by causing damage to vital organs, very seldom do they pass right through but they can still kill.
    I have enough experience to know that wounding or losing a mortally wounded animal is not necessarily due to over penetration any more than it is under penetrating, both can be and sometimes are causes of wounded game.
    My main point in this is to try and figure out when some of you will say enough is enough, will it be when you're shooting something that can go right through your target, the tree behind it, the hill behind that and the engine block of your truck parked on the road three miles away? Forget the fact that you need surgery to replace your arm and hand due to the recoil and the muzzle blast has cooked the target and clear felled fifty acres of forest, at least it penetrated fully.
    Last edited by Murphy; 09-17-2009 at 08:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Yeah, there's physics involved, but also physiology. If the full penetration doesn't include lots of tissue damage, it's not going to kill well. If the bullet sticks in the game and transfers all the energy, it's not necessarily going to kill better if it doesn't carry the damage all the way through the animal. If the round tears up a goodly amount of tissue all the way through, plus leaves two good holes for bleeding or air entry or whatever, that animal isn't going far.

    I'll take the right mix of good tissue damage and penetration any day over a full stop of the bullet.
    I should think so.


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    Quote Originally Posted by maarty View Post
    So many of you talk about how the .44 mag isn't enough gun, then you get the guys who say a .454 isn't enough gun, they all talk about penetration as though it is the only factor involved in killing an animal but there is more to it than that.
    All this talk seems to me just a "My dick is bigger than yours" competition, especially when you are telling someone with limited experience that they need bigger and bigger guns. Where does it stop? "Hell I took the wheels off an artillery piece and drag it round, anything less isn't enough gun for a genuine big backwoods he-man"
    You're right of course, no animal can survive a hit to the vitals if the bullet exits but I also know of many deer over here shot with ex military FMJ ammo that were never recovered due to the bullet imparting less damage despite passing right through the vitals.
    As for a spear it kills by causing damage to vital organs, very seldom do they pass right through but they can still kill.
    I have enough experience to know that wounding or losing a mortally wounded animal is not necessarily due to over penetration any more than it is under penetrating, both can be and sometimes are causes of wounded game.
    My main point in this is to try and figure out when some of you will say enough is enough, will it be when you're shooting something that can go right through your target, the tree behind it, the hill behind that and the engine block of your truck parked on the road three miles away? Forget the fact that you need surgery to replace your arm and hand due to the recoil and the muzzle blast has cooked the target and clear felled fifty acres of forest, at least it penetrated fully.
    High velocity is what makes modern bullets expand and do a lot of damage.


    I guess, in the old days of Black Powder, velocity was rather limited, so the tried and true way to increase power was to UP the Caliber, or Bullet weight.


    I think with a handgun like the 44 Mag thatís where we are. We need the caliber and weight, and bullet design to insure ENOUGH penetration, particularly if we hafta discourage a bar..


    With a modern rifle, we also need to consider, if our bullet will penetrate enough. You can have 3000 fps close to the muzzle, and a whole lot less out at 250 yards, so with the large diff in velocities, you want a bullet that will Expand way out there, but not Explode at short range, especially if you hadda shoot a bar.


    Rightly or wrongly, Iíll always go heavy for caliber, in my rifle, and use a Nosler Partition if the velocity is much over 2700 fps. Also, even though, I havenít shot enough game to fill an 18 Wheeler, I figger a bullet should go all the way through, at least mosta the time.


    But, I think yer probably right that whatever cartridge is asked about, itís never beeg enuff for some people, and the one they recommend is only better???, because it PENETRATES more.


    Hopefully, the most of us recognize that penetration is NOT ďthe only factor involved in killing an animal" but, that it is a very important one. Well, I've always thought so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maarty View Post
    So many of you talk about how the .44 mag isn't enough gun, then you get the guys who say a .454 isn't enough gun, they all talk about penetration as though it is the only factor involved in killing an animal but there is more to it than that.
    All this talk seems to me just a "My xxxx is bigger than yours" competition, especially when you are telling someone with limited experience that they need bigger and bigger guns. Where does it stop? "Hell I took the wheels off an artillery piece and drag it round, anything less isn't enough gun for a genuine big backwoods he-man"
    You're right of course, no animal can survive a hit to the vitals if the bullet exits but I also know of many deer over here shot with ex military FMJ ammo that were never recovered due to the bullet imparting less damage despite passing right through the vitals.
    As for a spear it kills by causing damage to vital organs, very seldom do they pass right through but they can still kill.
    I have enough experience to know that wounding or losing a mortally wounded animal is not necessarily due to over penetration any more than it is under penetrating, both can be and sometimes are causes of wounded game.
    My main point in this is to try and figure out when some of you will say enough is enough, will it be when you're shooting something that can go right through your target, the tree behind it, the hill behind that and the engine block of your truck parked on the road three miles away? Forget the fact that you need surgery to replace your arm and hand due to the recoil and the muzzle blast has cooked the target and clear felled fifty acres of forest, at least it penetrated fully.
    Ok. If you're going to talk in circles we need to narrow the circles down a bit. Hand guns are an entirely different group and must be compared one to another and not mixed in with rifle calibers. Why? Because one has the horse power to effectively use expanding bullets and push them through the vitals and one does not.

    Handguns: Having shot a few hundred rounds, from a dozen different handgun calibers, in to hundreds of animals, I can tell you what will go deep enough to hit the vitals and what can't. I've used every caliber of revolver from 38 spcl up to 500 Linebaugh and a half dozen pistol calibers as well to include the 10 mm, 45 ACP and magnumized variants, 44 Auto mag (and 44 Mag), 45 Win mag, 475 Wildey. These caliber at magnum handgun velocities are much more effective with heavy and hard (non-expanding or limited expanding bullets) because they cannot reliably penetrate more than a few inches in larger ungulates if the bullet fully expands. Worse yet, expansion at handgun velocities usually results bullets that travel off course as they loose stability at upset.

    In any case any bullet which does not reach the vitals will not kill quickly. This of course is usually the fault of the shooters marksmanship but should the shot be spot on, it could still fail to reach the vitals and penetrate enough to do enough tissue damage to kill quickly. It is far better to over penetrate than to under penetrate. The latter leaving a surface wound on an animal that may never be recovered, the former making a pock mark on the countryside. Only an unethical hunter would opt for less penetration only to save the dirt or trees or their own shoulder.

    Penetration: When is enough, enough? When there are two (2) holes in the animal for each shot fired. Never any less. Two holes are twice as many as one. (I'm good with math, too.) Two holes allow more and quicker blood loss. This gives faster expiration and leaves a better trail for even the inexperienced to follow. IF there are always two holes and IF I hit my mark, there will be holes in the vitals. Simple. IF there are no exit holes, even if I hit my mark, there may not be holes in the vitals.

    Modern rifle calibers with good controlled expanding bullets are much more reliable killing tools than even the largest of handgun calibers...and spears. The key here is simple also. Killing power goes up with bore size and bullet weight but takes large jumps when the correct bullet for the velocity of the cartridge and the size of the animals is used. I've written volumes about my experiences and on both these subjects and am well established in my beliefs based on what I've done and seen in the hunting fields.

    Wounded animals results first from poor marksmanship, secondly from poor bullet performance and thirdly from not enough gun. Bullet performance requires a bullet to penetrate through all the animal tissue necessary to pass through the vitals and destroy them. We do not know how much animal lies between us and the vital organs because we never know at what angle we'll be taking the shot. Obviously a larger animals well present more muscle and bone structure to shoot through and will need more gun and better bullets than the smallest animal. Also a serious misconception among hunters is that the higher the velocity of there mother magnum caliber will assure adequate penetration. Just the opposite is true, considering bullets of equal diameter/weight/construction. The higher velocity gives higher energy which expands the bullet more completely at impact and reduces penetration. The same bullet at lesser velocity will penetrate more deeply. Also a standard velocity caliber can make better use of ordinary cup and core bullets when at magnum velocity the bullet can be destroyed at impact. This would be one of those bullet failures, which generally is, for what ever reason, a failure to penetrate past the shoulder muscle and destroy the vitals.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20
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    Craig Boddington: Few alive have hunted more animals than he and an interesting debate with him about solids vs soft (expanding bullets) on cape buffalo. He says; "There is no doubt that any good expanding bullet will take a buffalo down quicker than a solid but it must penetrate through the vitals. A solid is much a better penetrating bullet and if well place we can be sure it will reach the vitals. An expanding bullet may not get there. Some expanding bullets are much better and that's why I like the Swift A-frame.....Yadda, yadda, yadda....." I agree with this and will say when hunting buffalo......A solid through the heart is much better than a Swift A-frame or a Barnes TSX stuck in the shoulder or paunch.

    So many folks agree that the X/TSX bullets are the greatest of killers. One of the reasons for this reputation of this bullet is that it penetrates like a freight train. It does that. Also one of the complaints about this bullet is that it fails to expand sometimes, or it expands too late(?). It is a fine penetrating bullet, I don't expect much expansion from mild calibers on light game. It is a good choice for magnum velocities. Hmmmmm.....Maybe penetration is important.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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