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Thread: buffalo bore VS large caliber magnum cartridge

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    Red face buffalo bore VS large caliber magnum cartridge

    Hello everyone,

    I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a 375 h&h or 340 wby. I don't have any experience with magnum cartridges such as these but do own 2 45-70's which i almost exclusively use buffalo bore ammo with. Based on the ballistics and the impact with my shoulder I would imagine them to be "similar" though not the same. Am I correct in assuming this or is there a big difference?

    the ammo I use is 300 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (2,350 fps/M.E. 3,678 ft. lbs.) out of my GG and CB.

    I do hunt with my 30-06 but it is the largest bolt action rifle i own.

    Thanks again for your advice

  2. #2

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    Both simply shoot a whole lot flatter than the 45/70. You don't see any bear guides carrying 45/70's and darned few carrying 458's for that matter, simply because they don't shoot flat enough when you really need to reach out and tag something. In their case, the south end of a north-bound wounded brownie 400 yards away and headed into the alders. In your case it's likely to be something other than a wounded bear, but 300 yards pretty well separates the men from the boys between those two and the 458, and closer for the 45/70 even with Buffalo Bore.

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    You don't see any bear guides carrying 45/70's
    Really...I know a few

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOMdiver View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a 375 h&h or 340 wby. I don't have any experience with magnum cartridges such as these but do own 2 45-70's which i almost exclusively use buffalo bore ammo with. Based on the ballistics and the impact with my shoulder I would imagine them to be "similar" though not the same. Am I correct in assuming this or is there a big difference?

    the ammo I use is 300 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (2,350 fps/M.E. 3,678 ft. lbs.) out of my GG and CB.

    I do hunt with my 30-06 but it is the largest bolt action rifle i own.

    Thanks again for your advice

    The .375 is going to send a bullet about twice as heavy on about the same trajectory as your 30-06. It's just going to kick you harder and hit harder on the receiving end. However, as far as useful range is concerned they are about the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOMdiver View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a 375 h&h or 340 wby. I don't have any experience with magnum cartridges such as these but do own 2 45-70's which i almost exclusively use buffalo bore ammo with. Based on the ballistics and the impact with my shoulder I would imagine them to be "similar" though not the same. Am I correct in assuming this or is there a big difference?

    the ammo I use is 300 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (2,350 fps/M.E. 3,678 ft. lbs.) out of my GG and CB.

    I do hunt with my 30-06 but it is the largest bolt action rifle i own.

    Thanks again for your advice
    I am not certain what your question is exactly. If you are comparing external ballistics then they are "similar" in muzzle energy, but that is about where the similarities end IMO.

    I've no qualms in saying the recoil from my 9 pound 340 is severe. In fact it provides the most recoil I will consider shooting from the prone position and even then I question if I would call it fun. It fires heavy bullets very fast and I love the niche it fills (extended range shooting at large animals), but it is only an effective tool in the hands of a dedicated shooter. The cost and availability of ammo demands, if not requires, handloading so I would be cautious in selecting the 340, though I use it and love it for its niche filling capabilities.

    The 375 H&H is a near perfect caliber for critters requiring heavier bullets and greater penetration. I also find its recoil very tolerable. In fact, in a 9-9 1/2 pound rifle I can fire a 375 without any discomfort at all during a normal session at the range. I know that many guys prefer the 300 grain loading, but I've had excellent success with the 270 grain cor-lokt & power point loads. Ammo is reasonably priced, widely available and I am unaware of a poor expanding bullet load.

    I use 400 grain bullets at 1750 fps in my 17 inch barrel 45/70. I've not killed a large animal with this load, but I have sampled its penetration and I've complete confidence in its abilities.

    For my part I think of these cartridges as fairly comparable in terminal performance, but there is substantial differences in the ranges at which they are optimal. I personally think of my 45/70 as effective up to about 150 yards, the 375 H&H at 250-275 yards and the 340 capable of 350-375 yard shooting. For moose and other ungulates I prefer the longer ranging of the 340 in some circumstances. For brown bears I like to be close, certainly inside 100 yards, preferably much closer. For big bears I would not make much difference between the three, provided I am comfortable with the individual rifle and have selected a proper load for the given cartridge. To each his own.

    I will say that I prefer shooting the 375 to a lightweight 45/70 or a similar weight rifle in 340. I have many different rifles, but a 375 H&H would probably be my choice (like it is for many others) if limited to one rifle for all of my big game hunting (deer to brown bear).

  6. #6

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    If you already have a 30-06, I would recommend that you get a 375H&H. With that combination you can hunt anywhere in the world.

    I would descibe the recoil of my 375 H&H model 70 stainless classic as mild. I imagine it would be more of a push when compaired to the Weatherby 340. My 300 weatherby is harder on my shoulder than my 375 H&H. It is a heavy gun to lug around in the field, but it shoots well and I have never had to shoot an animal in Alaska more than once with it.

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    Please think on this: just because it's big, doesn't mean YOU have to make it go fast.

    The beauty of large bore cartridges is: they can be loaded ridiculously low, so you can use virtually any bullet made for them, without blowing game to smithereens.
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The 375 will be a push kinda like the 45/70 the 340 will be sharper more like a 338.I do know guides that carry 45/70's but their clients shoot bears at 100yards or less and you can't see four hundred yards for a hole in one shot.Unless you are going to Africa and you are a hunter insted of shooter the 45/70 has you covered JMHO

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    My 10.5-lb 340 Wby (Mark V Accumark) recoils about the same as my 8.5-lb 300 Win Mag to me. It's not bad at all, and gets even better when I wear a shoulder-mounted recoil pad.

    As for your question, I left my HP calculator at work, but my quick take is that your 300-gr bullet going 2,350 fps produces almost identical momentum to that of the 225-gr Barnes TTSX bullets coming out of my 340 Wby at 3,100 fps. Also, I find, as many have claimed, that the Mark V (particularly the Accumark) tends to dampen felt recoil through the shape of the stock and the weight of the rifle (8-3/4 lbs before adding scope/rings/bipod/etc). Since the momentums ("momenti"?) are about the same, and almost any 340 Wby rifle probably weighs a little more than a 45/70 rifle, the 340 Wby should, as a matter of mathematics and physics, recoil less than the hot 45/70 loads. It should be somewhat sharper, but that's the effect that good recoil pads reduce (spreads out the peak recoil energy).

    In short, my 340 Wby is comfortable to shoot. Period.

    It also also produces 3,244 ft-lbs of energy and hits 2.7" low at 400 yards [Cor-Bon 225 Grain Barnes T-TSX (BC-0.514; 3,100 fps MV; 257-yd zero; bullet never rises more than 2.76” above the sight line; like a laser)]. It is more powerful at 300 yds than either a 30-06 or a 7mm Rem Mag are at the muzzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOMdiver View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a 375 h&h or 340 wby. I don't have any experience with magnum cartridges such as these but do own 2 45-70's which i almost exclusively use buffalo bore ammo with. Based on the ballistics and the impact with my shoulder I would imagine them to be "similar" though not the same. Am I correct in assuming this or is there a big difference?

    the ammo I use is 300 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (2,350 fps/M.E. 3,678 ft. lbs.) out of my GG and CB.

    I do hunt with my 30-06 but it is the largest bolt action rifle i own.

    Thanks again for your advice
    You can handle a much heavier push better than a solid fast smak of a recoil. I have a whelen and its push is eazier than a 7mm rems lesser but faster recoil.

    What did you want the 340 for or the 375 H&H for? Even between these two recoil is very different. And maybe your 45-70 with hard cast 370-420 grainers will do just what you want any way. Depends on what distance your shooting if I were to hunt big bears I would not be shooting over 100 yards more like 50-70 yards but thats my choice so. So I would have no need for the 340 and thu the 375 is nice to have a 45-70 or whelen will do fine for how I hunt.

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    I get the impression that you are looking for a “felt recoil comparison” and that is obviously a very subjective thing to try to quantify, and as the saying goes “you mileage may differ considerably” but from my particular point of view, with my personal rifles, it goes like this:

    30/30 Win 6 lb rifle with nice recoil pad, 170 gr full power loads = very modest recoil, can shoot all day with little if any discomfort from any position.

    260 Rem 6 lb rifle with nice recoil pad and muzzle break, 140 gr full power loads = very modest recoil, only slightly more than a 30/30, however is very loud with the break on.

    30-06 7 lb rifle with nice recoil pad, 180 gr full power loads = tolerable recoil for extended periods of shooting from any position.

    375 Win 7 lb rifle with thin rubber recoil pad, 265 gr full power loads = tolerable recoil for extended periods of shooting from any position.

    30-06 7 lb rifle with steel butt plate, 180 gr full power loads = tolerable recoil for short periods of shooting, from any position.

    375 H&H 9 lb rifle with nice recoil pad and muzzle break, 270 gr full power loads = tolerable recoil for short periods of shooting, from any position but dang hard on ears.

    375 H&H 9 lb rifle with nice recoil pad and no muzzle break, 270 gr full power loads = moderate recoil for short periods of shooting, from most positions, just don’t creep up on the scope while at the bench or prone.

    45/70 Gov in cut down Guide Gun with a nice recoil pad, with 405 gr full power loads = painful level of recoil after a few shots. I rarely shoot this load from the bench, and much prefer to stand.

    450 Marlin in light weight Timber Carbine with a nice recoil pad, with 405 gr full power loads = painful level of recoil for every shot. Don’t even think about short eye relief scope unless you want it buried in your skull. Get the butt near your collar bone or shoulder bone and you will wish you hadn’t. Expect to get “flinchy” after 2 or 3 shots. This gun / load combo will make lesser men and small boys cry…

    Well… there you have it. Like I said, recoil is very subjective but that is how I would rank the guns I frequently shoot. I think a lot of guys claim that they aren’t really “recoil sensitive” and for a few of them I suspect that is probably true. Having said that, on ever single occasion that I have shot hard kicking rifles with “recoil proof” buddies, I have handed them a gun with an empty chamber, and watched without fail as they flinch like the dickens when the trigger goes click… After all, we are all “manly men” and it would be a shame to admit that shooting certain gun / load combinations, just isn’t any fun at all!
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    you have an aught six and a 45-70....2 very fine calibers...I have killed with them well in the past yrs. sounds like you need an excuse to buy another caliber....buy the old H&H caliber, pretty nostalgic and "alive" to this day...everywhere in the world. Buy it "controlled" fed and not a push feed.......I've used the .375 RUM caliber for a few yrs, hits hard, no experience with the HH. My father used a pre-64 375HH for many many yrs here in Alaska when it was still "wild" in many parts with excellent results and favor. My first actual rifle he gave me was a pre-garcia Sako .338...when I was sixteen yrs. young, the .340 wthby from my past shootings was rather easy recoiling...I am use to recoil.

    oh well, just another ramblin' moment. let us know what you get.

    regards,

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    Sorry for the vague question to start the thread.
    I was looking at some ballistics tables and seeing that the +P 45-70 loads (on paper) are pushing 300 grain bullets at almost 2400fps. I have never fired larger magnum rounds (like the 375 h&h or a 340 Wby.) and wondered if the recoil would be similar to the gg with stated buffalo bore ammo. I guessed the 340 would be more of a snap similar to a 30-06 on some serious steriods, my 45-70's are like everyone describes...more of a push but those buffalo bore rounds push a lot more than anything else I have fired. I just wanted to know if I was approaching magnum level recoil with them. Ballistically the 375 h&h and 300 grain buffalo bore rounds are kinda similar....I knew the 340 was going to be more than either but was curious if it was at all comparable in the recoil area.
    The whole reason for this is my hunt that I am trying to work in for next fall. I have been to Alaska many times on fishing vacations, but never hunted. I don't know how close moose or bear allow you to get before heading for the hills...(i.e. 45-70 range?)

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    Default Heres my take

    I don't have a 375 H&H or a 340 wby. I do have a 1895 GG 45/70 with a good pad and my other big rifle is a Ruger 300 win mag MKII no break and a crappy recoil pad

    I just got the 45/70 and I was really concerned about the recoil with Large hot loads. It has not been ported and has a limb saver pad. The recoil is much different than any other "big rifle" I have ever shot. In fact last Sunday I put about 50 rounds down the tube about half of those where Buf Bore 430s and 500s and they kicked but there was no pain involved.

    On the other hand. My 300 win mag is a pain too shoot on the bench. It hurts, It has a cheapo recoil pad on it and I am going to put a good limbsaver on it to see if it helps. You have to watch it or the scope with bite you, I have the scar to prove it. The recoil is "sharp and quick" if that makes any sense where as the 45/70 is more of a push.

    In bear country that is even a little bit brushy I carry the 45/70. It shoots nice, its light, in a defense situation I cant put 4 rounds down the tube accuracy in about 15 seconds. Just tossing lead in about 8.

    A much more seasoned shooter/hunter once told me when I asked him what kind of rifle he recommended for bears he told me shoot what you like, but like what you shoot. If you don't like what you shoot you won't practice especially if it hurts to shoot. Therefore when it comes down to brass tacks you would be better off with a gun you put many hours in at the range with rather than a gun that can stop a Sherman tank but you cant hit the broad side of a barn with.

    What I recommend you do is see if you can shoot the guns and the calibers you are considering and see which one you like and make your decision from there.

    My .02
    Last edited by byrd_hntr; 09-10-2009 at 11:32. Reason: I spell terribly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    My 10.5-lb 340 Wby (Mark V Accumark) recoils about the same as my 8.5-lb 300 Win Mag to me. It's not bad at all, and gets even better when I wear a shoulder-mounted recoil pad.

    As for your question, I left my HP calculator at work, but my quick take is that your 300-gr bullet going 2,350 fps produces almost identical momentum to that of the 225-gr Barnes TTSX bullets coming out of my 340 Wby at 3,100 fps. Also, I find, as many have claimed, that the Mark V (particularly the Accumark) tends to dampen felt recoil through the shape of the stock and the weight of the rifle (8-3/4 lbs before adding scope/rings/bipod/etc). Since the momentums ("momenti"?) are about the same, and almost any 340 Wby rifle probably weighs a little more than a 45/70 rifle, the 340 Wby should, as a matter of mathematics and physics, recoil less than the hot 45/70 loads. It should be somewhat sharper, but that's the effect that good recoil pads reduce (spreads out the peak recoil energy).

    In short, my 340 Wby is comfortable to shoot. Period.
    I just crunched a few numbers on:

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...php/recoil.htm

    Now their math and physics may be off, I am not a mathematician, but the numbers I get from their formula seems pretty accurate to me and my considerable experience with both cartridges. Using the 45/70 ballistics GOMdiver mentions I get something on the order of 35 ft lbs (depending upon gun weight) of free recoil and using MarineHawk's info for the 340 it amounts to 42 ft lbs of free recoil. Now this is not felt recoil, but this shows a difference of about 20%; I'd say that's about right and what I would expect. That is from a 340 that weighs 10.5 pounds, in a more normal sporter weight of 9 pounds or a tad heavier the recoil is some 40% more than the 45/70 load. If 20% more recoil than hot 45/70 loads is comfortable to you then I say go after it, but please realize you are in the minority. For me the 340 is right at the threshold of what I can shoot with confidence from the prone position and I suspect that it is much more than the average hunter/shooter will be comfortable with the first few dozen times at the range. Recoil pads can take the bite away, but the 340 has more than bite and without significant recoil reducers added to the rifle I stand by the fact that it produces more recoil than most will find tolerable.

    It is a niche cartridge, not a general purpose cartridge. Maybe in a 10-12 pound rifle it can be called "comfortable," but in a sporter weight rifle recoil is heavy and fast. Comparing apples to apples the 340's recoil is much heavier (20-40%) than either the 45/70 or the 375 H&H. Period.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I just crunched a few numbers on:

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...php/recoil.htm

    Now their math and physics may be off, I am not a mathematician, but the numbers I get from their formula seems pretty accurate to me and my considerable experience with both cartridges. Using the 45/70 ballistics GOMdiver mentions I get something on the order of 35 ft lbs (depending upon gun weight) of free recoil and using MarineHawk's info for the 340 it amounts to 42 ft lbs of free recoil. Now this is not felt recoil, but this shows a difference of about 20%; I'd say that's about right and what I would expect. That is from a 340 that weighs 10.5 pounds, in a more normal sporter weight of 9 pounds or a tad heavier the recoil is some 40% more than the 45/70 load. If 20% more recoil than hot 45/70 loads is comfortable to you then I say go after it, but please realize you are in the minority. For me the 340 is right at the threshold of what I can shoot with confidence from the prone position and I suspect that it is much more than the average hunter/shooter will be comfortable with the first few dozen times at the range. Recoil pads can take the bite away, but the 340 has more than bite and without significant recoil reducers added to the rifle I stand by the fact that it produces more recoil than most will find tolerable.

    It is a niche cartridge, not a general purpose cartridge. Maybe in a 10-12 pound rifle it can be called "comfortable," but in a sporter weight rifle recoil is heavy and fast. Comparing apples to apples the 340's recoil is much heavier (20-40%) than either the 45/70 or the 375 H&H. Period.
    I agree with all you say. Mine probably weighs in at about 11 lbs with the rifle, scope, one-peice ring base, rings, and bipod (not pictured). I would not want to shoot an 8 or 9 lb 340 Wby, but mine does not recoil uncomfortably to me.


    If I was going on an arduous sheep hunt, carrying a lot of wieght, I would probably want to get a light-weight 7mm rem Mag or something.



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    Sorry for the delayed response,

    To all who responded, thank you. From the information I am hearing....the 340 is not a daily shooter! I like shooting and am constantly working to become a better marksman (wasn't so good to start so I have a lot of work to do), but if the recoil is terrible (and 20-40% more than a hot loaded 45-70 sounds terrible) I don't believe I could shoot it well. I have never hunted in alaska but it is on the agenda, I just want to make sure that I am not out of reach of the game. I plan to bring my gg as well as what sounds like a 375 h&h just in case. It would be a shame to drive all the way up there only to find yourself stuck with only longer shots than a gg is really designed for. Again I don't know if this is a comon situation when moose/bear hunting.
    So thanks again to all those with more experience than I.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    I've never shot a hot 45/70, but FWIW for comparison, my hefty 340 definitely recoils less (felt) than my lightweight Rem 870 does when firing 2-3/4" Hornady sabot slugs.

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    You could always put a muzzle brake on the 340 and be done with it. Yeah, you have some extra muzzle blast and noise, but it would make it really easy to shoot, and I don't think the extra noise would bother anything for a few shots on game every year. I shoot one on my 338 and it really turns it into a *****cat. Scotty

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Note,you say you hunt with your 30-06.Well your 06 is all you need to bring and your GG can be the extra or how ever you want to use them.Your 06 with good bullets from 180 to 220 grain will do all you need up here.

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