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Thread: Huntin' Ethics question

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    Thumbs down Huntin' Ethics question

    I'm sure this has all been addressed before, but I had a situation this weekend that really chapped my rear-end.


    Me and my 10yr boy got up early one morning and made our way to a new area we decided to hunt for the day. When we got to the area that overlooked the river bottom we saw that it was all socked in with fog. There was a truck sittin' at the overlook as we pulled up on our 4-wheelers so we decided to take the trail down into the bottom to scout an area to set up. We drove back in quite a ways and decided the area closer to the begining of the trail looked more promising so we came back out and parked our 4-wheelers at the edge of the clearing (well in site of the overlook). My son and I grabbed our gear and started snaking our way through the tussocks until we found a good place to sit and wait for the fog to clear. The fog finally burned off and we discovered that we had picked a "prime" area only 1000 +/- yards from where we parked the 4-wheelers.


    We sat there for a couple hours glassing and sittin' around reading. My son had the binos so I decided I would take a little snooze in the sun. I had almost drifted off and all of a sudden BOOM, BOOM, BOOM (pause) BOOM coming from a couple thousand yards above us. I told my son to get down not knowing where the shots were going and waited for the shooting to stop. After the shots stopped and we picked ourselves up off the ground we saw this huge moose (I estimate at least 60" +) come into our field of view and lay down 100 - 150 yards in front of the 4-wheelers just inside of the treeline. We sat there for a half hour or so watching the moose laying there and also scanning the hill to see if someone was coming down after it.


    I noticed that the bull was still moving his head around and looking, so I told my son to grab his stuff and we were going to put a stalk on (thinking the shooter had missed). We spent the next 15 - 20 min picking our way toward the moose (all the while looking up the hill at the parked truck - to see if someone was watching this bull) until we were within 100 - 125 yards of this bull that had stood up by this point and was making his way back into the treeline. I fired off a round hitting a small black spruce (I later discovered). We walked in and looked around the area I had shot and look for the bull. When we walked back out to where the bull had been laying down the original shooter was finally down there looking around. We spoke for a couple minutes and then parted ways.


    My son and I had to find another spot where we sat for the next several hours. We saw nothing and decided to pack it in for the day. On the way out we stopped at the location where the man had told me he shot the moose from. Looking down the hill I realized that they would have had to be blind to not see where our 4-wheelers were parked and also that where the moose was when he took the shot was around 1000 yrds. Then the bull still went a couple 1000 yrds more before laying down.


    What do you guys/gals think...Would any of you take that long of a shot? If you knew people were down in the valley, would you shoot down toward the area they might be? I know this is quite long, but this person threw 4 rounds towards it before hitting it, wounding it and still had to put a 5th one in it before it was finally dispatched. This thread was a way for me to vent a little and maybe get some inputs from some of the forum members. Thanks for your time.

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    Member AKHunterNP's Avatar
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    I would never take a shot that long. Even if you had the perfect setup, rest and the stars were all aligned it's too much of a risk to wound an animal, not to mention, how much energy is that bullet carrying at 1000yds? As for him shooting after seeing your atv's, Alaska is a big place and it would be impossible to tell what direction you went after getting off your quads. If I had been out hunting and saw quads in the area I would have taken the shot if the moose was in my shooting range. I would have kicked myself if I didn't take the shot on a moose like that and then find out later that you had moved in the opposite direction.
    "...arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe...Horrid mischief would ensue were the good deprived of the use of them." -Thomas Paine

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    first off, 1000 yards is a LONG way! It certainly sounds ethics challenged by your description however if the distance was more in the 5-600 yard range (you didn't witness the actual shot) and the shooter was well practiced at that range the kill zone of a moose is large enough to offer a pretty good margine for error. It is also impossible to say which of the rounds was the one that hit the moose. It could be that the first round was a hit and then he missed 3 times on a running animal. He later tracked his quary down and finished it which is the correct and moraly correct action.
    For me I don't make a habit of shooting that distance but it is hard to argue that this guy has a full freezer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    first off, 1000 yards is a LONG way! but it is hard to argue that this guy has a full freezer.
    2nd time this season I have seen someone on here justify a long shot cuz the meat is in the freezer. The ends justify the means I guess.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    yeah definitely no good....


    we had a few experiences of our own in the FTMA this week.. Thousands of eyes it seemed like searching for both moose in the valley...

    watched some pretty wild things happen with people wheelers and the need to compete with the others.

    by your description. he seen the moose knew you were there and took his chance rather then let you have it. all the while swearing at you for passing his truck and parking below him....

    we got more then a few dirty looks this week from non locals... when we all rode together three camps with all our kids... any where from 6-12 wheelers at a time and then we would hook up with the rest of the locals out there.


    I lost 50+ gallons of diesel fuel out of my holding tank in my truck, had 200 plus people trying to use my drive way...


    all i can say is it is going to be one of THOSE hunting seasons... to many uptight people
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member B-radford's Avatar
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    Me, personally, if its over 200 yards i dont shoot if i am rifle hunting. If i am bowhunting (which i am doing 9-% of the time) I dont shoot over 40 yards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post

    I lost 50+ gallons of diesel fuel out of my holding tank in my truck, had 200 plus people trying to use my drive way...

    If you're going to get picky about it I'll not park there again and will reimburse you for the fuel.

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    Default Refreshing

    It's good to hear some of you feel the same way I do about long shots. While making my stalk I had plenty of opportunity to take a less than ideal shot at the big boy, but I kept wanted to see how close I could get before taking a shot. Whether it's rifle or bow, I feel the closer you get the better chance of making a "one round" KILL shot...not a 4 round wounding shot.

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    So there is a guy already overlooking this "prime" area and you still drove your quads down below to hunt it as well? And parked your quads where he could see them?

    I wont comment on "the shot" since its a 2nd hand account.

    I'm really baffled as to who's being the "good and ethical" hunter here and who isnt...

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    until we were within 100 - 125 yards of this bull that had stood up by this point and was making his way back into the treeline. I fired off a round hitting a small black spruce (I later discovered).
    Sounds like you both missed. Do you actually know where the other guy shot from? For sure?
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutter View Post
    So there is a guy already overlooking this "prime" area and you still drove your quads down below to hunt it as well? And parked your quads where he could see them?

    I wont comment on "the shot" since its a 2nd hand account.

    I'm really baffled as to who's being the "good and ethical" hunter here and who isnt...

    Don't be baffled...This area he was parked at overlooked the ENTIRE river bottom and also overlooked the trail going down into the area. If you are saying that person should have been left alone for the entire area I guess I am in the wrong. If you remember the part where I wrote that the area was socked in with fog when I went down in, you would realize that I didn't intentionally park my ATVs where I did to piss anyone off. I couldn't even see the top of the the hill I had just descended.

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    Yeah, seems kind of iffy. If he was already there and you drove past him no problem but it doesn't seem like you were too far from him so to be upset at this guy for shooting at a bull that was between you and him seems a little off. I understand him shooting in your direction could be bad but maybe you should have stopped to see which direction he was hunting. Maybe he has hunted that spot forever and always glasses the trail you parked on and was waiting for the fog to clear. I don't agree with 1000 yards shots and not many do but who knows the situation except the guy that shot and your interpretation of it. One mans 600yrds could be anothers 1000.

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    Was this spot in the Yukon Training Area off of Beaver Creek Rd? It sounds a lot like a spot I was at last week. We were sitting at a look out over looking a river valley back there. We had a couple of guys get there ATV stuck below us on a trail where we were over looking. It did not bother me, because it was about 10:00 when they went down there. But if it would have been first thing in the morning, I would have been upset. I think you should have stopped at the overlook ask the guys where they are looking and tell them where you planned on setting up. Just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    2nd time this season I have seen someone on here justify a long shot cuz the meat is in the freezer. The ends justify the means I guess.
    I have been surprised at how often some of these (at least what I would consider to be extremely long shots) are addressed with kudos as to "what a great job". Almost as if the emphasis is on long range shooting rather than hunting skills.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    I have been surprised at how often some of these (at least what I would consider to be extremely long shots) are addressed with kudos as to "what a great job". Almost as if the emphasis is on long range shooting rather than hunting skills.
    Joe (Ak)

    would be interesting to comp Sig lines between those threads...


    but i am going to stand fast...




    i MAY not agree with it.. but 1000 yards is in fact within my means... so i am not going to Fault another for that shot... especially when some of those folks received the same education i did...
    .
    there are many young men that can shoot and are selected to receive additional training in hopes they will select to fill a vacancy in a select few areas of the military.... many more are selected then choose to transfer to that area.

    natural skills, ability's, and consciouses. awareness of the surroundings and personal control make it possible for those shots to be had.

    my choice is to NOT take them with out the equipment i was issued. .

    most people are not inept enough to take a 400 yard shot lest alone a 1000.... but i am not the one to say .... you or he.... or she is that person... there are many many better shots then i and i accept that...

    you values, mine, his, hers,,,,


    they are the values learned from parents, mentors, life, experience and education.

    each person has their own...

    each person must live with the decision they make

    each person... has their own set of morals, values, and definitions of right and wrong to expound upon their own life experience and effort...


    it is much to easy to fault that person, that does not meet our immediate expectations. not meet our own values or understandings...

    they may just be like you and me bar that fact that they really do have that tallent... most do not...

    your method of take may greatly differ from mine...

    as long as the end result is the game free of wounds or in the freezer... it is the SAME...

    we may argue all day and night the moralic behavior of another's decision.... but we are not the judge of them nor they us...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    I have been surprised at how often some of these (at least what I would consider to be extremely long shots) are addressed with kudos as to "what a great job". Almost as if the emphasis is on long range shooting rather than hunting skills.
    Joe (Ak)
    Joe, who needs hunting skills, if they don't matter. What is way cool'dude is having a plastic & stainless steel sniper rifle, a high power scope, and a monster cool wheeler dude. Like why hike in those silly Hip-Boots man if you can like Honda up and fling some lead, man...that be way cool to fling some lead. Like what matters is wheeling and killing.


    That skills stuff is for you OLD dudes. This is now man, now....like, live wide open...burn-out early, and bug this fly-trap dude. Hunting skills, man that is so like 20'th century, like way back in the hip-boot period, like back in that "Filson" Whip-cord period, when skills mattered. Dude, you are like totally prehistoric, man. You need a 30-378 Moogan-gator cartridge rifle, and a honk'in wheeler.(Intended to be funny....lighten up snipers)

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    Default To long

    Most caliber's don't have enough energy left at 1000 yards to kill a large animal cleanly. And very few people are qualified to take a shot like that. It's a bad practice even if your trained to be a sniper.

    I killed a sheep once at 620 yards with a 8mm mag. while I was skinning it out I found the bullet laying on the ground next to the sheep, I't had gone right through the lungs and didn't even have enough energy left to mushroom. you could have reloaded it. I still have the bullet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Joe, who needs hunting skills, if they don't matter. What is way cool'dude is having a plastic & stainless steel sniper rifle, a high power scope, and a monster cool wheeler dude. Like why hike in those silly Hip-Boots man if you can like Honda up and fling some lead, man...that be way cool to fling some lead. Like what matters is wheeling and killing.


    That skills stuff is for you OLD dudes. This is now man, now....like, live wide open...burn-out early, and bug this fly-trap dude. Hunting skills, man that is so like 20'th century, like way back in the hip-boot period, like back in that "Filson" Whip-cord period, when skills mattered. Dude, you are like totally prehistoric, man. You need a 30-378 Moogan-gator cartridge rifle, and a honk'in wheeler.(Intended to be funny....lighten up snipers)
    Funny stuff!

    So, sbenjamin, you're complaining about the long range lead thrower who hits 25% of his targets (1 out of 4) at a supposed 1000 yards and you hit 0% at 100 yards? And its a giant 60" bull? Did you bump your scope? Sorry for the sarcasm but things just don't add up to me...
    Last edited by sockeye1; 09-08-2009 at 22:38. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Joe, who needs hunting skills, if they don't matter. What is way cool'dude is having a plastic & stainless steel sniper rifle, a high power scope, and a monster cool wheeler dude. Like why hike in those silly Hip-Boots man if you can like Honda up and fling some lead, man...that be way cool to fling some lead. Like what matters is wheeling and killing.

    That skills stuff is for you OLD dudes. This is now man, now....like, live wide open...burn-out early, and bug this fly-trap dude. Hunting skills, man that is so like 20'th century, like way back in the hip-boot period, like back in that "Filson" Whip-cord period, when skills mattered. Dude, you are like totally prehistoric, man.."(Intended to be funny....lighten up snipers)
    Know what you mean!
    But it is sure easy to fall into the "trap" of thinking one should develop the necessary hunting skills that would allow to get close enough to make clean killing shot; to develop the skills necessary to understand the animal be hunted and the habitat where it is found.
    But then, since there are "no" standards, we all set our own; kill one and we are a "hunter" of whatever was killed regardless of the circumstances, why "bother" to learn.
    Over the past thirty years I've spent a lot of time developing material that would help get across some of the basic principles of hunting and resource responsibilities. Some of the material was developed for a one credit, one semester college course for sheep and brown bear hunting. Especially the brown bear material has been used in presenting day long seminars.
    Given, at least according to a number of posts (and, unfortunately, in my opinion) all too often, about all that is really needed is to be able to see the animal; blast away, and hope.
    Too bad for the experience of the individual - and above all - too bad for the resource.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sockeye1 View Post
    Funny stuff!

    So, sbenjamin, you're complaining about the long range lead thrower who hits 25% of his targets (1 out of 4) at a supposed 1000 yards and you hit 0% at 100 yards? And its a giant 60" bull? Did you bump your scope? Sorry for the sarcasm but things just don't add up to me...

    Yes I missed. He was beginning to move through the black pine and I hit one of them. I still was able to move 900 yrds (with my 10 yr old in tow) to be able to make that shot at 100yrds. I think if my 10 yr old can stalk a moose, an adult should be able to do it too.


    I guess my biggest problem with this whole situation is that it is becoming all too common where folks find a high "perch" to look for animals and no matter how far the shot, they take it and keep shooting until they wound an animal. Sometimes these animals are never found. Hunting is not just about throwing lead at the target and hoping. Sometimes you have to GO TO the animal to make a clean kill shot. I think we are beating this dead horse.

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