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Thread: Murphy: 168 TTSX 30-06 COAL???

  1. #1

    Question Murphy: 168 TTSX 30-06 COAL???

    Murphy,
    I read a previous post where you recommended seating the TTSX slightly and then running the round through the chamber to get the bullet to touch the rifling and subsequently seat itself with the bullet touching the lands. I did this today with my Rem 700 and the total length was 3.521 and 3.523 (i did this twice). You then said to seat the bullet .050 deeper. That would leave my COAL at 3.471. Does that sound correct? The barnes manual said COAL should be 3.218. I'm a beginner and I want to make sure this is ok because it definitely looks off the way it is. The neck is dead center on the first ring of the bullet from the base. I'm at a loss because the 3.218 from the manual seats the bullet very deeply into the case but your method seems to leave it way out.

    Thank You,
    Mike

  2. #2

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    Also, I forgot to mention but the round as you said to do it does cycle from the magazine without a problem.

  3. #3

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    Mike,

    I'm not Murphy but if you use this technique you want to make sure that you have just enough neck tension to hold the bullet in the neck and loose enough that the rifling will push the bullet into the neck when it contacts the bullet ogive. Too much tension will cause the bullet to jam into the lands and not enough tension may cause the bullet to pull out of the neck slightly when you cycle it out. Make sure you cycle in slowly and out slowly and when you cycle out, put a finger on the case so it doesn't flip out to the side.

    As far as COAL, different rifles will have different chamber and throat dimenssions. If you do this technique correct, you will end up with the correct COAL. I use this method myself.

    -MR

  4. #4

    Default More On COAL...

    Murphy would be correct. Seating the bullet .050 from the lands generally causes accuracy to improve, (sometimes greatly so) because the bullet doesn't have to "jump" ,and rattle around, before it finally contacts the rifling. The COAL you see in manuals is a default "safe value" that ensures the loaded round will function in ALL rifles, regardless of distance to the rifling, and regardless of how short the magazine may be. It results in a bullet seated a bit deeper. Although safe, these seldom result in best accuracy...you won't often see these at the matches...

    Loading your ammo via the "Murphy method" will result in ammo correct (taylor custom-made) for your rifle, but not neccessarily correct for any other. In fact, such ammo may not even chamber in a different rifle. (because distance to lands varies so much...and in some cases the bullet may contact rifling before the round is chambered, in some guns), so be certain you label the cartridge box somehow, identifying which rifle it was loaded for...lest you get way out in the boonies on an important hunting trip, and then find out your ammo won't chamber. If a round won't chamber...DON'T FORCE IT!...this is asking for super-high pressures...or a bullet stuck in the rifling when you extract the case...and loose powder thrown all over in the action...
    (yup: been there, done that... )

    You will often read or hear of gun writers or reloading manuals speak of "short-throated" and "long-throated" rifles. Basically, what they are referring to is the distance from the case mouth to the rifling. This distance varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even from model to model, even in the same company. Weatherby is famous for having "long-throated" rifles. I don't know if that is still the case, but it wouldn't surprise me. (this is neither good nor bad, just mentioning it as an example)

    If you are reloading for a friend, or you do not know what rifle the ammo will be used in, then use the COAL listed in the loading manual. Unless your rifle is absolutely 100% carbon-copy identical, it is of no value whatsoever to copy a friend's COAL obtained from his particular rifle. What works superbly great in mine may not work at all, in yours...

    Marshall/Ak

  5. #5
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    I agree with Marshall/AK but I would like to add the following.

    Once you determine the seated depth or COL for your rifle with the TSX it will not be the same for other bullet types that you may load in the future. The profile or ogive of each type or weight within types will result in different COL's for your rifle.

  6. #6

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    Thanks for all of the responses. As far as neck tension, it's a little rough to get it just right on the TSX due to the rings. What I did was just neck size the top 1/16" or so. I then seated the bullet. Even with just the 1/16 sized, the bullet was pretty tight. I needed to pull the bullet with a tool. However, if I didn't size the neck at all, it was too loose and the bullet moved when I unchambered the round. Does 3.471 for a 30-06 sound way too long? It's way longer than any other COAL for a 30-06 load than I've ever seen. I just want to make sure that I'm not totally offbase here.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Last edited by MikeStaten; 09-01-2009 at 05:20. Reason: typo

  7. #7

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    The way I adjust my neck tension is to use a kinetic bullet puller which is a tool that every hand loader should have. Fully seat the bullet after neck sizing or partial neck sizing and then pull it. Repeat this process until you are able to seat and pull the bullet by hand with some force.

    I would say your 3.471 COAL is within reason. Bottom line... if you are doing this technique correctly you will get the correct COAL for your bullet and throat.

    Marshal is right about different shaped ogives and different COALs.

    -MR

  8. #8

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    Montana Rifleman,
    That is exactly what I was thinking about doing. I will try that tonight.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Does 3.471 for a 30-06 sound way too long? It's way longer than any other COAL for a 30-06 load than I've ever seen. I just want to make sure that I'm not totally offbase here.

    No, I don't think that's too long. I normally seat mine to 3.34" but that's only because that's the OAL Ken Waters frequently seated bullets to in "Pet Loads", and it worked fine in my three different '06s.

    Mike

  10. #10

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    Mike,
    It looks like Ken Waters was quoting the max SAAMI spec which is 3.340. Maybe for safety I'll just start with that and see how it shoots.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  11. #11

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    Finally shot my first re-loads. To be on the safe side I set the COAL to 3.340 and loaded them up with 53.5 grains, 54.5 and 55.5 of H4350. I did not see any obvious pressure signs which was good. However, accuracy wasn't too good either, all three groups were 1.5" - 2" @ 100 yds with a slight edge to the 55.5 grain load. Given this is my first round of reloads I'm pretty happy with the outcome. Pulling the trigger on the first round was a little scary even know I've read 2 manuals about 20 times each and sat on the internet for hours reading about this stuff. I figure I will try going up to 56, 56.5 and 57 grains and see if they get better and then mess with the seating depth. Sound good? I've read that most guys get their best accuracy going up to about 58 grains but I'm not sure that I'm, ready to push things that far yet.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Last edited by MikeStaten; 09-04-2009 at 05:01. Reason: typo

  12. #12

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    Mike, For load development for monometal bullets like TSX's and E-Tips I seat the bullets to about .050 off the lands or the max length I can seat them and still fit them in my mag. In my 300 WSM, in order to to fit them in the mag They have to be seated about .140 from the lands. Then I work up until I see pressure signs like a stiff bolt, cratered primer, ejector marks, etc. Then I back down to where I dont see pressure signs and start shooting for groups, backing down about 1/2 a grain at a time.


    For most jacketed bullets, I'll seat them about .010 off the lands and for Bergers, I'll seat them right to the lands. In my Sako 300 WSM to seat near or to the lands means I have to shoot single shot basically, although I usually can put one in the mag because the bullet tip in the top of the mag is above the mag wall. Since I usually hunt with one in the chamber, it's a two shot configuration.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    I figure I will try going up to 56, 56.5 and 57 grains and see if they get better and then mess with the seating depth. Sound good? I've read that most guys get their best accuracy going up to about 58 grains but I'm not sure that I'm, ready to push things that far yet.
    That sounds reasonable. My normal hunting load is a 180 grain Nosler partition over 57 grains of H4350, so I think you should be pretty safe even accounting for the fact that the TSX bullets are longer than lead core bullets of equal weight.

    Mike

  14. #14

    Default seating

    3.34 isnt even close to the lands in my remmy. I have my TTSX 168's at 3.400, and would have them longer, but that is what fits, (have detach mag) I started a little shorter, at 3.3700, but got a little (little tiny) bit more accurate with 3.400.

    I have put out 3/4" groups at my best, that is over 52.2 grains IMR4227SSC. Really like the SSC, and 4227 is right inbetween 4064 and 4350, good for my 22" barrel.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Mike,
    It looks like Ken Waters was quoting the max SAAMI spec which is 3.340. Maybe for safety I'll just start with that and see how it shoots.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  15. #15

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    I set the COAL to 3.433 which is 0.088 off the land and loaded up 55.5, 56 and 56.5 grains of H4350. The 55.5 and 56 group at around .75 and .80, respectively where the 56.5 opened up to about 2" again. So basically by going from 3.340 to 3.433 my groups were cut in half except for the 56.5. Also, while the 56.5 grain load didn't show any obvious signs to my experienced eyes, flattened primer etc..., the bolt was not hard to open but I did notice that it had a little more tension than normal. What to do now?? Would you just go back to the 56 which had the best accuracy and play with the seating depth? I was thinking of increasing COAL by .010 increments but not going to less than .050 off the lands. That make sense? Would you really expect to get better than .75" groups from a factory barreled Rem 700? (I pillar/glass bedded the action). Any idea of the velocity I would get with 56 grains out of the 22" barrel?

    Thanks again,
    Mike

  16. #16

    Default More on COAL...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    I agree with Marshall/AK but I would like to add the following.

    Once you determine the seated depth or COL for your rifle with the TSX it will not be the same for other bullet types that you may load in the future. The profile or ogive of each type or weight within types will result in different COL's for your rifle.

    Yep...that's 100% RIGHT ON. As he stated: if you change to a different bullet, then you do have to start all over again determining what is the optimum OAL for your rifle. Usually, no two bullets of different weights, brands, or style have exactly the same ogive. (frontal curve). Which means actual distance to the rifling will vary between the two bullet types...
    However, you can save yourself a whole lot of hassle by first determining what you are loading your ammo for. Unless you are into precision match shooting, I'd forget about figuring out the precise COAL for your rifle. Just adjust your seating die for the OAL as specified in the reloading manuals. This will result in ammo that works plenty good enough for 99.9% of hunting. (with the possible exception of long range varmint shooting) And it will result in ammo that will work fine in 99% of rifles. And, the game you shoot isn't going to notice, or care, whether your ammo makes 2" groups, or .500" groups (for example)...the end result will be the same at the usual hunting distances...game in the freezer. The average hunter in the field (huffing and puffing, heart pounding, crosshairs weaving and bobbing) (from the exertion and excitement) is very lucky indeed to keep his shots all within a 3" or 4" group at 100 yards. Tweaking your ammo COAL, so that it might produce perhaps 2.5" groups, under the same conditions, seems hardly worth the hassle...unless you have selected just ONE bullet you are going to use ALL the time you are hunting, EVERY time you hunt, and EVERY time with just that one same rifle...
    The exception to "is striving for COAL worth it?" would, IMO, be competition match shooting, where even .01" in a group (how do they even measure that?) can mean all the difference between winning or losing. In this scenario, determining the optimum COAL for your rifle would be very important.
    The one other possible exception is if your rifle accepts bullets that are seated out quite far, then it means you might possibly be able to drop another grain or two of powder into the case, for increased velocity. (while still maintaining the same approximate pressure). Because long-throated rifle chambers effectively could mean case capacity is somewhat slightly increased...because the bullet can be seated less deeply. (doesn't have to be, but CAN be...)

    Marshall/Ak

  17. #17

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    If you are getting 3/4" groups, I wouldn't worry about your velocity too much, but you are probably in the 2750 range I would guess. I like 4350 for longer barrels and larger bullets as it is a little slower burning than most -06 powders, one of the fastest for 168grain on up though.

    One thing: increasing the COAL will give you a faster jump to the lands, which will increase pressure, backing it off with a higher load may take away some pressure signs, you just have to play and see what works. A longer COAL will usually give you a little bit of a velocity edge, but just a little, whatever furry critter you are shooting at isnt gonna notice. If you have pressure signs, I wouldn't recommend increasing the COAL anymore on that powder charge.

    But honestly, for the regular joe (like me) I found a 3/4 moa load for my -06, and that is what I use, and have no need to mess with it any more.


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    I set the COAL to 3.433 which is 0.088 off the land and loaded up 55.5, 56 and 56.5 grains of H4350. The 55.5 and 56 group at around .75 and .80, respectively where the 56.5 opened up to about 2" again. So basically by going from 3.340 to 3.433 my groups were cut in half except for the 56.5. Also, while the 56.5 grain load didn't show any obvious signs to my experienced eyes, flattened primer etc..., the bolt was not hard to open but I did notice that it had a little more tension than normal. What to do now?? Would you just go back to the 56 which had the best accuracy and play with the seating depth? I was thinking of increasing COAL by .010 increments but not going to less than .050 off the lands. That make sense? Would you really expect to get better than .75" groups from a factory barreled Rem 700? (I pillar/glass bedded the action). Any idea of the velocity I would get with 56 grains out of the 22" barrel?

    Thanks again,
    Mike

  18. #18

    Default

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeStaten View Post
    Also, while the 56.5 grain load didn't show any obvious signs to my experienced eyes, flattened primer etc..., the bolt was not hard to open but I did notice that it had a little more tension than normal. What to do now??
    What kind of sizing are you doing? FL or just neck sizing? If your just neck sizing your cases might be getting a little swelled up which might cause a little difficulty in chambering and/or ejecting. I'm guessing you're FL sizing. You might also make sure you have a clean chamber before suspecting pressure. Are your primer pockets getting loose? If you are FL sizing, I would recommend backing your die off a little so it just barely sizes the case just enough to fit the chamber.


    If you're really looking for accuracy, start checking concentricity of your necks and bullets. A Redding competition seater is about your best bet for good concentric seating. For concentric necks, use a Redding neck sizer and get a floating expander button and place a little rubber "O" ring just above the button. This will greatly facilitate bringing the expander button up through the neck evenly, keeping your neck straight and concentric. Set your neck sizer so it only partially sizes your neck. leave about 1/4 to 1/3rd unsized. This will leave a little doughnut at the base of your neck and shoulder junction which will align and center neck into the chamber neck, which will provide much more consistency, and consistency is what it's all about.


    Last, if you use a neck die for neck sizing, then use a body die for body sizing and size it every time - back off just enough so you are only partially sizing the case so it will barely fit without excess tension when chamber. And.... trim your necks at least every other firing if not every firing. These techniques will go a long way in helping with accuracy. But they will cost a little extra. The question is the accuracy worth it to you?


    Marshal/AK makes a good point. Shooting minute of moose vs .5 MOA wont make much difference to large game inside 200-300 yds. I however, on the other hand like seeing ragged hole groups and knowing exactly where my bullets are going. 300 yds is a chip shot for me if my rifle and load are tuned up. I can go much farther. In fact my 300 RUM will be zeroed for 300 yds and capable of shots much farther. But that's just me. You figure out what's good for you.

    Quote:
    Would you just go back to the 56 which had the best accuracy and play with the seating depth? I was thinking of increasing COAL by .010 increments but not going to less than .050 off the lands. That make sense? Would you really expect to get better than .75" groups from a factory barreled Rem 700? (I pillar/glass bedded the action). Any idea of the velocity I would get with 56 grains out of the 22" barrel?

    Thanks again,
    Mike


    Before backing to back to 56 make sure your slightly stiff bolt isn't being caused by dirty chamber or swollen cases, etc. If all of that checks OK, then back off.


    I would increase the COAL about .020 at a time until I was about .010-.020 off the lands and pick the best shooting length. But, if you decide to do the above loading techniques, get that down first before wasting anymore time.


    your current sub MOA groups are good for shots to 500 yds plus. If you want to squeeze them down another 50% try the other techniques and be precise and consistent about every step.


    Good shooting,

    -MR



  19. #19

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    Currently I'm using a RCBS FL Die but backing it off so it sizes 95% of the neck but doesn't touch the shoulder. Being that I'm using the 168 grain TTSX I'm concerned that if I make these any longer I'm going to start having feeding issues. Also, I'm going on a backcountry hunt an I will not be shooting over 350 yards so I think I may leave well enough alone and fool with the rounds when I get back for local deer hunting.

    Do you agree with the previous post that I'm probably getting around 2750 fps? I was thinking more along the lines of low to mid 2800s.

    On a side note, how bad's the kick on the 300 RUM? I'd think it would knock the snot of me.

  20. #20

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    I really dont think I could guess what your velocity is. The only way to know is run it over a chrony and then some chronys can be off about 2-3%. So if you want to get a feel for how your chrony is, shoot it in line with a couple of others. IMHO, the only thing that really matters is accuracy and knowing your drops.


    I haven't shot my 300 RUM yet - still need to pick up my rail base and rings to mount my scope which I hope will happen within the week. It's a Sendero (8 1/2 lbs) and the previous owner actually said it was nice to shoot. I'm a little skeptical how "nice" it will be on the bench, but I use a slip-on recoil pad for bench shooting magnum rilfes.


    Hope your hunt goes well...


    Cheers,


    -MR

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