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Thread: 1st & 2nd year of life for Grizzly cubs

  1. #1
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    Default 1st & 2nd year of life for Grizzly cubs

    I need a little help from anybody that has seen this info in print. I looked at the current regulations, Page 29, and it says:
    "Cub bear means a brown/grizzly bear in 1st or 2nd year of life.....".
    My question or problem is this. By regulation, or definition of regulations, when does the 1st year of life start and end, and when does the 2nd year of life start and end, specifically related to brown/grizzly cubs/bears.
    Let's assume a bear is born in the spring of 2007. What year of life is that bear in right now (August 31, 2009).
    I know this may have come up before in other threads, but my time is limited to do a search.
    I really appreciate any references to specific regulations or definitions that any of you can post. I have a problem that I am trying to solve, and time is limited at best.
    Thanks again,
    ARR

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    I need a little help from anybody that has seen this info in print. I looked at the current regulations, Page 29, and it says:
    "Cub bear means a brown/grizzly bear in 1st or 2nd year of life.....".
    My question or problem is this. By regulation, or definition of regulations, when does the 1st year of life start and end, and when does the 2nd year of life start and end, specifically related to brown/grizzly cubs/bears.
    Let's assume a bear is born in the spring of 2007. What year of life is that bear in right now (August 31, 2009).
    I know this may have come up before in other threads, but my time is limited to do a search.
    I really appreciate any references to specific regulations or definitions that any of you can post. I have a problem that I am trying to solve, and time is limited at best.
    Thanks again,
    ARR

    The ultimate test is the "MILK TOOTH". The bears are born Jan. 15th give or take only a very few days.

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    Member jdb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    The ultimate test is the "MILK TOOTH". The bears are born Jan. 15th give or take only a very few days.
    Of course you have to get lose enough to look and I'm afraid mom would not let you pull his jaws apart. Pretty much if the cub is still with the sow you can't shoot it. There are some exceptions, especially if the sow has been killed. Jim

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    Let's assume a bear is born in the spring of 2007. What year of life is that bear in right now (August 31, 2009).ARR

    Born: Jan. 15th, 2007 today that bear is Two years & Seven Months & 15 Days old. (Bear is in it's Third year of life).

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    Default again, by regulation or definition of year

    This is important that I keep on task. Nowhere in the regs does it talk about a milktooth. I do not intend to shoot a cub, or even a young bear. I have a conflict I am trying to resolve, and hope to do so via regulation and your specific knowledge of such.
    Thanks again guys and gals.

  6. #6

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    Yes, I know there is no mention of the Milk Tooth, I miss calulacted.....reread post # 4. First year of life is Jan. 07 to Jan. 08 The Second year of life is Jan. 08 to Jan. 09 the third year of life is Jan.15th 2009 till Jan.15th 2010. Bear is "IN" it's THIRD Year of life, and will begin it's Fouth year of life on Jan. 15'th 2010.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    I need a little help from anybody that has seen this info in print. I looked at the current regulations, Page 29, and it says:
    "Cub bear means a brown/grizzly bear in 1st or 2nd year of life.....".
    My question or problem is this. By regulation, or definition of regulations, when does the 1st year of life start and end, and when does the 2nd year of life start and end, specifically related to brown/grizzly cubs/bears.
    Let's assume a bear is born in the spring of 2007. What year of life is that bear in right now (August 31, 2009).
    I know this may have come up before in other threads, but my time is limited to do a search.
    I really appreciate any references to specific regulations or definitions that any of you can post. I have a problem that I am trying to solve, and time is limited at best.
    Thanks again,
    ARR
    FORGET TRYING TO OVER ANALYZE "THE BOOK DEFINITION". The definition is quite clear. A bear that is older than two years (it is in its third year) is legal. The PROBLEM is the overlapping sizes of younger animals. A very large "long" yearling male may appear to be larger than a smaller sow. Make the determination if it is a sow with cub, regardless of the legal definition, if so, then forget them.
    Joe (Ak)
    (Note: Alaska has been very fortunate in having a long list of dedicated biologists doing a lot excellent work with brown bears. The listed web-site is just one of many excellent sources of information. Reading the paper may be of some assistance.)
    http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin...lenn_Vol_4.pdf

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    Member Alaskan22's Avatar
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    REMEMBER!!!!! Just because mom is no longer around, does NOT mean the bear is out of it's 2nd year, and no longer defined as a cub.

    As it was mentioned before, a 1.5 year boar can look plenty big for one to think it was a 2+ year old. Especially if mom is not around (killed in any other way).

    You't think that ANY solo bear is legal, but that is NOT the case as defined by law, and can get a person in some trouble. TRUST ME I know this!
    Know guns. Know peace. Know safety.

    No guns: no peace. No safety!

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    Joe nailed it,

    any cubs with a sow,, forget. Unless their 'in your face'.........

    2 year old Kodiak cubs most frequently 'sport' a 'whitish collar' on their neck, I don't know if this applies to coastal browns, never seen it.
    Rarely it happens, but sometimes cub/cubs will accompany momma the 3rd summer, and might even den near her. When you see 3 bears 'almost' the same size, then its a high probably of sow with cubs.
    Its not uncommon for 3 year olds to 'pal' around together.

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    Default No time to OVER analyze.

    Quote from Wantj43:
    "FORGET TRYING TO OVER ANALYZE "THE BOOK DEFINITION". The definition is quite clear. A bear that is older than two years (it is in its third year) is legal...."
    If it were clear I would not be asking the question. I am over analyzing nothing. An Enforcement Officer,s response conflicts with your answer, therefore, I am stalemated until I find, in writing, anything that contradicts that professional assessment.
    I am not looking for a sneaky, skulky, behind the scenes, read between the lines Bul Sheet answer so that I can go do whatever I feel like. I have a problem, I need to solve it, and I only have a few hours to do so.
    Please go back and read my first post and answer best you can as to how to define the 1st and 2nd year of life, as written in the Handy Dandy ADF&G Regulations, Page 29.
    And the first guy thinks he should turn this into a "pick on LEO" thread ought to think twice. I do have calls into Fairbanks F&G but am still waiting.
    Sorry to be brusque. I am trying to get work done and sneak here to see what I can learn.
    Really, I appreciate the help & I am just a bit stressed trying to be sure I come up with the right answer, not a convenient one so I can forward this to where it needs to go.
    ARR

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    Quote from Wantj43:
    "FORGET TRYING TO OVER ANALYZE "THE BOOK DEFINITION". The definition is quite clear. A bear that is older than two years (it is in its third year) is legal...."
    If it were clear I would not be asking the question. I am over analyzing nothing. An Enforcement Officer,s response conflicts with your answer, therefore, I am stalemated until I find, in writing, anything that contradicts that professional assessment.
    I am not looking for a sneaky, skulky, behind the scenes, read between the lines Bul Sheet answer so that I can go do whatever I feel like. I have a problem, I need to solve it, and I only have a few hours to do so.
    Please go back and read my first post and answer best you can as to how to define the 1st and 2nd year of life, as written in the Handy Dandy ADF&G Regulations, Page 29.
    And the first guy thinks he should turn this into a "pick on LEO" thread ought to think twice. I do have calls into Fairbanks F&G but am still waiting.
    Sorry to be brusque. I am trying to get work done and sneak here to see what I can learn.
    Really, I appreciate the help & I am just a bit stressed trying to be sure I come up with the right answer, not a convenient one so I can forward this to where it needs to go.
    ARR
    I'm not certain who the enforcement officer is, but he is wrong. The definition is very clear in that it states a cub (brown bear) is any animal in its first or second year of life. Once an animal is over two years old it is in the third year, therefore not a cub and "legal". However, as I pointed out in my original post, from the hunter's standpoint the overlap in size is such that for the hunter it can be extremely difficult to determine whether the animal is a long yearling or two plus.
    My phone # is 907-457-4736 and I will be happy to speak in person either with you or the ENFORCEMENT officer. However, he either didn't understand the question or doesn't understand the definition.
    It certainly is not my intention to "pick" on anyone.
    Good luck
    Joe (Ak)

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    Quote from Wantj43:
    "FORGET TRYING TO OVER ANALYZE "THE BOOK DEFINITION". The definition is quite clear. A bear that is older than two years (it is in its third year) is legal...."
    If it were clear I would not be asking the question. I am over analyzing nothing. An Enforcement Officer,s response conflicts with your answer, therefore, I am stalemated until I find, in writing, anything that contradicts that professional assessment. ARR

    What part of my post above are unclear. Yes, It is very possible the Enforcement Officer is wrong. It happens. What I posted is as clear as it gets. It states in the paper hand-out regulations that they are not complete. And that said incompleteness is no excuse.

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    Default Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks

    This has been a whirlwind of info as I am waiting from a call from a friend. My apologies if I seemed in any way angry or sharp. I just have a lot to do, and work is not letting up.
    I just called F&W Enforcement again. I reiterated my question, and asked it a different way. He said he'd pull out the blue book and call me back, which he did post haste.
    His response is that a bear, after its second birthday, is no longer in its second year of life. It would be considered a juvenile, and since it is not a cub by definition, both the sow and the juvenile would be considered legal bears to shoot.
    That is what I have thought all along. I was really surprised at the first answer, hence my consternation and angst at trying to get good solid info asap.
    He and I both agree that there are issues with shooting sows accompanied by younger bears. Same issues that several of you noted too. I am not sure what drove the change in age on a cub, as it used to be 3 years.
    Yes, a person needs to excercise extreme caution if they choose to take either animal described. There is potential for making a mistake, for sure.
    Kudos to LEO for taking the time to be sure, even though it contradicted what he first said.
    Thanks again everybody, and Joe, I still might call, you just never know.

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    for Black Bears it is first year of life. That means a lot of cubs (at least what I feel is a cub) can be legally harvested. I guess they feel that ADF&G feels that you can kill black bear cubs.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    "...I am not sure what drove the change in age on a cub, as it used to be 3 years.
    ..."
    Not since I can remember - but - they say "memory is the last thing to go"!
    The issue of whether these 2+ bears are legal has been around a long time - pretty much has always followed the course this thread took.
    Hope all worked out.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Default contradicting info

    that wildlife officer just confused things or put his own spin on the regs.

    Regs state in the second year of life. That is Jan 07 to Jan 08=1 year, Jan 08 to Jan 09=2 So this year it would have been legal to shoot if so chosen.

    BUT, if it has to be after it second birthday, that means on Jan. 08 it turned 1. Jan. 09 it turned 2=still in second year of life! Jan. 2010 it turns 3 and is out of 2nd year of life.

    So which it is, year of life, or birth year?! Regs state year of life, not birth year sooooooooooo...

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    As I stated in post #13, the LEO agreed that the second year of life ends on the bears 2nd birthday. You are correct, the regs say nothing about age, i.e. the bear being 1 year old, or 2 year old.
    His initial thought process was about age. Hence his initial response. As I stated earlier, this won't be about LEO making mistakes and we are not going to trash those guys. We all make mistakes. We expect professionals to be perfect. I wish it were that simple. The norm in our past talks is that he has been correct right from the start.
    What I do like about this guy in particular, is even though he gave me one answer, he understood the time constraints I was under, and took immediate time to pull the big book, find the answer, call me, and set the record straight.
    I don't know about anybody else, but where ever I go for service, it does not get better than that. He manned up and did the right thing. I wish other people, especially in service organizations, could take a lesson from this guy.
    From time to time we are all going to give or get conflicting information. When that happens, how we handle ourselves I feel speaks volumes about the character of the person.
    Thanks again guys for helping out.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    As I stated in post #13, the LEO agreed that the second year of life ends on the bears 2nd birthday. You are correct, the regs say nothing about age, i.e. the bear being 1 year old, or 2 year old.
    His initial thought process was about age. Hence his initial response. As I stated earlier, this won't be about LEO making mistakes and we are not going to trash those guys. We all make mistakes. We expect professionals to be perfect. I wish it were that simple. The norm in our past talks is that he has been correct right from the start.
    What I do like about this guy in particular, is even though he gave me one answer, he understood the time constraints I was under, and took immediate time to pull the big book, find the answer, call me, and set the record straight.
    I don't know about anybody else, but where ever I go for service, it does not get better than that. He manned up and did the right thing. I wish other people, especially in service organizations, could take a lesson from this guy.
    From time to time we are all going to give or get conflicting information. When that happens, how we handle ourselves I feel speaks volumes about the character of the person.
    Thanks again guys for helping out.
    Glad it all worked out. I've certainly felt that both with ADF&G and Protection they've both always made a real effort to provide accurate information. However, whatever answers are received it is important first the question and answer be accurately understood by both. Some of theses regulations are tough enough to understand even with the benefit of having watched them develop over the years. One of the worst areas are the license and harvest ticket requirements and issuing procedures.
    Again, glad it worked out.
    Joe (Ak)
    Did you get my PM?

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