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Thread: First pressure signs...???

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    Default First pressure signs...???

    okay staright from the nosler number six... loads


    Reminton brass



    CCI 250

    nosler 180 grain accubond

    Ruger MkII 300 wimn mag stainless in laminate stock..

    LOVes max load of RL 22 @75.5 grains...


    so i worked up the load from minimum to max... 68.5-75.5 in 3 shot groups, and 24 loads made up in that range


    at first i did not have ANY pressure signs.. so made a bunch... 75rounds...

    these guys put 3of 4 in same hole... i mean WOW my rifle has never been so accurate and tight.... factory loads are ~2 in groups

    now i was checking sights today setting scope eleivation etc.....


    and my bolt got tight... had to smack it back... and i have a BOLT mark on all my brass... the thing is i have a BOLT mark on my factory loads as well now... ????? that was first thing i did was grab 5 180 federal loads and shoot them to see rifle reaction...

    so once in awhile i get a tight bolt.. i have a mark on evey brass... ???? should i back them down 0.1-0.2 grains or more? should i send it back to gary? who just gave it back to me 2 months ago?

    or do i know i am at max RPM on these loads and hunt? carfully sthe set prior to this load 75.3gn has a 1.028 group... and that is doable... but dang these are all in the same hole....

    thoughts?
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    How many reloads on the cases that showed pressure? Sometimes it's after the brass has been worked a bit that pressure signs start to show. If that's the case, you could always use your preferred "special" load in factory new or once-fired brass. Personally though...you don't start to get brass flow or bolt marks until you're already in the 65,000 psi realm, and any of the traditional pressure signs are beyond design specifications. I'd back off a few tenths and then play with bullet seating depth to see if you can make the exceptional accuracy return.

    I'm curious...what do the primers look like? Are the flat and level with the brass or are they slightly curved at the outside edge?

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    That load is a compressed load. I would look at the case length as well as the Overall length. Odd that is does it with the factory loads also. Without intending to insult, is the chamber clean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Nut View Post
    How many reloads on the cases that showed pressure? Sometimes it's after the brass has been worked a bit that pressure signs start to show. If that's the case, you could always use your preferred "special" load in factory new or once-fired brass. Personally though...you don't start to get brass flow or bolt marks until you're already in the 65,000 psi realm, and any of the traditional pressure signs are beyond design specifications. I'd back off a few tenths and then play with bullet seating depth to see if you can make the exceptional accuracy return.

    I'm curious...what do the primers look like? Are the flat and level with the brass or are they slightly curved at the outside edge?
    best i can tell my primers look fine.. this is all ONE time fired brass except for the federal factory loads. i don't have a FL die for the 300 yet only the neck sizer. so it is not like the brass is getting over worked????

    Quote Originally Posted by Armymark View Post
    That load is a compressed load. I would look at the case length as well as the Overall length. Odd that is does it with the factory loads also. Without intending to insult, is the chamber clean?
    acording to the reloading manual this is at 98% and i feel no compression when seating.... the IMR7828.. defiantly needs to compress. but not the RL 22.

    i am using a Lyman digital measure and scale... so a am FAIRLY certain they are all the same...

    i am not sure your question on the chamber... but yes it it clean prior to firing. bore foamed and snaked each time... also Gary at arctic gun gets to service it once a year by dismantling bolt etc.... that was done not long ago...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    best i can tell my primers look fine.. this is all ONE time fired brass except for the federal factory loads. i don't have a FL die for the 300 yet only the neck sizer. so it is not like the brass is getting over worked????
    Can you post pictures of the brass?

    Primers flow and stretch well before brass shows any signs of pressure. In every load I've seen or made that had high pressure, the first sign was ALWAYS a flattened primer and a small rim circling the firing pin indentation. If your primers are good but the bolt is still hard to lift, or you're getting boltface markings on the brass, I'd suspect something has gone awry with your bolt to chamber lock-up. That would be the only thing I can think of that explains the marks on factory ammo.

    Might be time to pull the bolt out (if you haven't already) and do a really good examination of the lugs to check for cracks or chipping on the contact faces. The bolt should also be labeled with the last 3 digits of your rifle's SN for quick reference. I know it's a slim chance, but could Gary have possibly put a different Mod 77 bolt back into your gun after he serviced and cleaned it? Please don't take this as a slam on Gary...I've used him for custom rifle work in the past with good results; but everybody is human and makes a mistake now and again.

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    Vince, Check your book again. 75.5gr of RL22 in a 300 win mag is listed at 107%. Couple things I would try: 1) Get a full lenth sizing die. If you cant find one up there, Im sure I can down here for you if you want. 2) Try the Fed 215 that Nosler is listing in there #6 book. On Nosler loads that I have replaced fed 215's with CCI 250's I have noticed a significant jump in velocity. Im not sure if I can help you with the 215's right now, I can look. Give Allen a call. 3) Try RL19 or IMR 4350. In my opinion RL22 is a bit slow for a 180gr 30 cal bullet. I can help with the 19 or 4350 if you need. 3) Check to see how fast your loads are. My guess is that they are going to be significantly faster than listed in your manual. Sometime when you come down we can go out to Birtchwood if you want and run them through my crony.

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    Wow guys, this is a real brain twister! I agree with all comments made, especially checking the bolt. It is also worth checking the bolt raceway and the locking lug recesses for bits of gunk and unburned powder granules. Those are places that can be hard to get clean and often take an old tooth brush to try to reach.

    I'd wonder about the load except for the same thing happening with factory loads. You know, it only takes one shot to deposit gunk in the chamber and locking recesses and it can be tough to adequately reach some spots.

    I too always check primers' shape after firing but have found that primers don't tell the true story at times. I've gotten flat or cratered primers with very reasonable loads, plus I've had primers look fine with loads that actually caused head expansion (wayyyy too hot).

    I've also found that loads developed in Winchester brass (as used by Nosler) to be excessive in Remington brass, and at times the reverse. Brass from different makers can vary a lot in capacity. I've also noticed that some virgin brass from Win. and Rem. to be very close or even over max case length and needing a trim before ever being shot (off the subject, I know).

    I'm really guessing, but it sure sounds like sneaky bits of gunk. I'm hoping it isn't something more serious. I agree, after a search for dirt in every nook and cranny (M77 bolts are very easy to take apart), if it still acts weird, have it checked by a 'smith. Reloading is an art and an adventure where some rules are solid, but others are "flexible".

    As a final note, I have come to distrust electronic scales, and 3 different makes sit in the corner gathering dust while I use my 45 year old balance scale from Lyman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wholden View Post
    Vince, Check your book again. 75.5gr of RL22 in a 300 win mag is listed at 107%. Couple things I would try: 1) Get a full lenth sizing die. If you cant find one up there, Im sure I can down here for you if you want. 2) Try the Fed 215 that Nosler is listing in there #6 book. On Nosler loads that I have replaced fed 215's with CCI 250's I have noticed a significant jump in velocity. Im not sure if I can help you with the 215's right now, I can look. Give Allen a call. 3) Try RL19 or IMR 4350. In my opinion RL22 is a bit slow for a 180gr 30 cal bullet. I can help with the 19 or 4350 if you need. 3) Check to see how fast your loads are. My guess is that they are going to be significantly faster than listed in your manual. Sometime when you come down we can go out to Birtchwood if you want and run them through my crony.

    k NOsler fifth.. page 357 RL 22 max 75.5 3118 fps 98%
    Nosler sixth ( hmmm )107% on Nosler brass) 3118 fps @75.5 gn(page 403)

    Page fifteen of the little purple reloading manual for 300 win mag.. for Nosler 180

    RL 22 @75.5 is 98% in a Winchester case. @ 3118 FPS.



    i have both winchester and Remington cases ???????

    i am guessing the % difference is the case brand. all have the same FPS ETc... i was running 106% with imr7828 with NO issues

    the thing that really gets me is the bolt mark on the Factory loads also.

    i tried to photo graph it.. but it wont show in our light ...

    the head stamp of the case looks as though some one took a scribe and scratched a light line around it. the primers do not appear flat.


    i can say with certainty that when i set these loads they ARE NOT compressed into the powder. my COAL is 3.40 as recommended.


    as for PRIMERS... CCI are all thats to be had.

    I would not have even notice the line on the case had my bolt not gotten tight on a few.

    i am going to reload some others light loads and see again if the mark appears... i also have a matching 338 to try a second firing on brass to see if it is a Ruger thing?????

    Thanks
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    Ah yes, wholden, you are correct! There can be very notable differences in primer brands. Also, you are right, after several loads, especially hot ones, and only neck sized, it will take a trip through a full length sizer to "make things fit".

    Loading manuals are only "hints" and one should avoid considering them "rules". However, deviate even a bit from the same components used in the manual and the "hint" becomes even more suspect. The mystery of the sticky factory loads still puzzles me though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon Puma Hunter View Post
    Ah yes, wholden, you are correct! There can be very notable differences in primer brands. Also, you are right, after several loads, especially hot ones, and only neck sized, it will take a trip through a full length sizer to "make things fit".

    Loading manuals are only "hints" and one should avoid considering them "rules". However, deviate even a bit from the same components used in the manual and the "hint" becomes even more suspect. The mystery of the sticky factory loads still puzzles me though.
    i will go find another die before i start agin... i only noticed i bought the neck set the other day on accident... when re read the box to make sure i had it not the 30/30
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    Okay, one more comment and I'll shut up. Nosler brass does not have the same capacity as Winchester brass and usually has less capacity, hence the difference in percent. In fact, for the price, Nosler brass has shown me nothing but less money in my pocket. A "torture test" I read about recently, showed that Nosler brass gave fewer reloads before failure than Rem., Win, or Fed. I love Nosler products, but I'm not sold on thier brass. I'm still considering gunk in a hidden place as a possible answer. Good luck!
    Ps: I've reloaded for over a dozen M77's, both the original and the MKII and never had a single problem (after replacing those nasty triggers) since the early '70s. However dirt can effect any machine, even ones that look clean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon Puma Hunter View Post
    Okay, one more comment and I'll shut up. Nosler brass does not have the same capacity as Winchester brass and usually has less capacity, hence the difference in percent. In fact, for the price, Nosler brass has shown me nothing but less money in my pocket. A "torture test" I read about recently, showed that Nosler brass gave fewer reloads before failure than Rem., Win, or Fed. I love Nosler products, but I'm not sold on thier brass. I'm still considering gunk in a hidden place as a possible answer. Good luck!
    Ps: I've reloaded for over a dozen M77's, both the original and the MKII and never had a single problem (after replacing those nasty triggers) since the early '70s. However dirt can effect any machine, even ones that look clean.

    Thanks Puma hunter... LOL no need to shut up... i am still very green at all the reloading and will take any all advice to heart!!

    did have that trigger done... WOW!!! still need to have my 338 done as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    My first thought would be to spend time punctuating your sentences like a literate adult should.

    Have you cleaned the rifle regularly? Have you measured the COL of the cartridges and compared them to the ones that seem to require more effort to lift the bolt? How about the velocities? Were they higher for the instances requiring effort to lift the bolt, or ones that left a mark?
    thanks for the English lesson..... it didn't take in 7th grade either i dont expect it to now either... unless i am writing a service manuel...

    yes the rifle is clean

    the COL is the same all the way through

    velocity takes a chrono.. don't have one

    all the case have a mark, not all were sticky
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    Interesting. Their on line data also states 98% for that load. From what I have seen, its not a "Ruger" thing either.

    How are you lubing your cases prior to sizing, and then are you cleaning the lube off after that step? I personaly retumble brass after its been sized to remove all lube so it wont gum up the chamber, not a good thing. Kind of like firing the older Wolf ammo with the shellack on the steel cases, it can really make a mess of the chamber. Just trying to come up with some realistic ideas on what your problem might be.

    Will

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    Hmmmm... If you are getting the same sticky bolt and bolt marks with factory ammo as handloads it sounds like a bolt and or chamber issue to me. It might even be a headspace issue that has developed for some reason. I would recommend taking it to a good gunsmith.

    -MR

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Hmmmm... If you are getting the same sticky bolt and bolt marks with factory ammo as handloads it sounds like a bolt and or chamber issue to me. It might even be a headspace issue that has developed for some reason. I would recommend taking it to a good gunsmith.

    -MR
    Yes indeedy.


    Where is the mark?
    What causes the Mark?
    Is the mark the reason for the sticky bolt lift?

    Figger that stuff out FIRST.


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    Quote Originally Posted by wholden View Post
    Interesting. Their on line data also states 98% for that load. From what I have seen, its not a "Ruger" thing either.

    How are you lubing your cases prior to sizing, and then are you cleaning the lube off after that step? I personally retumble brass after its been sized to remove all lube so it wont gum up the chamber, not a good thing. Kind of like firing the older Wolf ammo with the shellack on the steel cases, it can really make a mess of the chamber. Just trying to come up with some realistic ideas on what your problem might be.

    Will
    Will, the lubing new brass was done under the super vison of CZin AK.. with a lube pad and RCBS oil... then wiped off

    second loading ( this set ) was done on a lube pad with ONE shot ... and wiped off with a rag...

    I tried the tumble after decaping and spent 3 hours with a tooth pick cleaning flash holes...



    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Hmmmm... If you are getting the same sticky bolt and bolt marks with factory ammo as hand loads it sounds like a bolt and or chamber issue to me. It might even be a head space issue that has developed for some reason. I would recommend taking it to a good gunsmith.

    -MR
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Yes indeedy.


    Where is the mark?
    What causes the Mark?
    Is the mark the reason for the sticky bolt lift?

    Figger that stuff out FIRST.


    Smitty of the North
    this is where i am at... trying to figure out the cause..

    is a bolt mark normal on subsequent ladings?

    i believe the tight bolt may in part be my fault.(as if that was EVER an issue) due to the neck size die.. and not a FL. die for doing the reloads...

    i can/could understand that i expanded the brass first time and further tightened the second firing...

    i would not have seen the ring except that i am worried about pressures..

    i will give up the accuracy for no pressure.. though it will make my 300 an exceptional squirrel gun.....( nothing like picking them buggers off at 100 yards or better...)

    hence my questions before i proceed. i have enough factory ammo to push the hunting season.. but really need to find out WHY i have a scribe line around the inside of my head stamp... light as it may be...

    now.. for the COL... in anticipation of the question... CZ measured my COL in the LAN.. and it far exceeds my ability to place the shell in the mag.. it just wont fit... so there is no way i can be pushing the col into the lan... on firing... 3.34 is COL (and we did not write down the LAN..) but i kinda remember it being 3.7 and my bolt being 3.5ish... honestly can not fit much past the col....
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    Some random thoughts.

    First I am confused by this ring you are disturbing. I am not familiar with the model 77 but does it not use a Mauser style ejector? So if the brass where flowing into the cut in the bolt I would expected a shinny spot in the shape of the cut not in a ring.

    Have you been trimming your brass, could your brass have gotten longer and started to be crimped on bullet seating or be to long for the chamber neck.

    Also have you uniformed the primer pockets. When I do I get a slightly shinny ring around the pocket where the uniformer stops the depth, the first time I noticed it was sometime after uniforming and it took me a minute to remember the cause.

    Also take a close look at the bolt face has the ejector cut got some kind of burr raised at its edge that is scraping the cartridge.


    I still need to get you those 338 and 243 cases I said I would give you. I plan to go to the range tomarrow and swing by Frontier after. You told me where you work when we talked about the cases, I may try to drop them off tomorrow. If you bring a case in I could give it a look, I am far from an expert but no harm in having a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    Some random thoughts.

    First I am confused by this ring you are disturbing. I am not familiar with the model 77 but does it not use a Mauser style ejector? So if the brass where flowing into the cut in the bolt I would expected a shinny spot in the shape of the cut not in a ring.

    Have you been trimming your brass, could your brass have gotten longer and started to be crimped on bullet seating or be to long for the chamber neck.

    Also have you uniformed the primer pockets. When I do I get a slightly shinny ring around the pocket where the uniformer stops the depth, the first time I noticed it was sometime after uniforming and it took me a minute to remember the cause.

    Also take a close look at the bolt face has the ejector cut got some kind of burr raised at its edge that is scraping the cartridge.


    I still need to get you those 338 and 243 cases I said I would give you. I plan to go to the range tomarrow and swing by Frontier after. You told me where you work when we talked about the cases, I may try to drop them off tomorrow. If you bring a case in I could give it a look, I am far from an expert but no harm in having a look.
    i will have them...would love a second opinon.. i can even have the rifle and bolt there.

    no pocket sizing.. other then debure and clean with a brush.

    sizing yes.. to specified length. but i can NOT load a to long a bullet.. just wont go in the gun...

    thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    Some random thoughts.

    First I am confused by this ring you are disturbing. I am not familiar with the model 77 but does it not use a Mauser style ejector? So if the brass where flowing into the cut in the bolt I would expected a shinny spot in the shape of the cut not in a ring.
    bandhmo has a valid point: Brass under extreme pressure flows down the path of least resistance, which means any grooves or cuts in the boltface would be mirrored on the cartridge headstamp. The Ruger 77 has a rectangular slot cut for the fixed ejector, and this is where brass would flow if pressures were truly high. The only thing I can think of is the case is sticking in the chamber as the bolt rotates to close, and this is leaving a slight circular smudge or mark on the headstamp.

    I still think a headspace check by a gunsmith would be in order.

    -Adam

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