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Thread: Pushing the "Envelop"

  1. #1

    Default Pushing the "Envelop"

    I'm surprised at just how little "cushion" some are allowing themselves before shooting some of these rams. Several that have been posted are NOT full curl; would be hard enough to age in hand as being eight and certainly leave A LOT of room for debate as to how much wear constitutes "broomed" or broken.
    Joe (Ak)

  2. #2
    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    and certainly leave A LOT of room for debate as to how much wear constitutes "broomed" or broken.
    Joe (Ak)
    The regulations are pretty vague on what constitutes broomed or broken. What was your standard when guiding sheep hunters?

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    Member AK_Stick's Avatar
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    Everyone looks at the regs a little differently, just like everyone measures just a little different.

    Hell even the F&G guys don't all do it the same. The bull I measured at 54' they called 55 1/2. Not much, but could have been the difference between legal and illegal.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chisana View Post
    The regulations are pretty vague on what constitutes broomed or broken. What was your standard when guiding sheep hunters?
    Our "standard" when guiding for sheep is the regulation requires the sheep be full curl to be legal. That means the tip of the horn must at least intersect a straight edge placed at the base of the leading edge of the horn.
    The secondary criteria such as age or broken (broomed) were intended to allow for the harvest of animals that would never reach the standard of full curl. Age for those animals that the flare was such that the tip would never reach the "full curl" plane at the base; broken or broom for the same reason.
    The criteria of age and/or broken were not intended to create "loop holes" to the full curl regulation. Unfortunately some are applying them in that manner. I'm certain more citations will follow.
    Too bad.
    Joe (Ak)

  5. #5
    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Joe. The same thoughts came to mind as I looked at the images but reserved judgement since I was looking at pictures vs having the actual horns "in hand".

  6. #6

    Default Envelope

    Well call me stupid, and let the flames throw already, but I danced with the devil and the devil won. I shot a ram in an area that rams usually don't reach full curl until about 9 years old according to F&G studies from years ago, of course that may have changed since. He was with a full curl ram that was MUCH thiner, and he acted like the older ram. He looked to me to have 8 rings through a 60x Swarovski at 600 yards, and based on his mass and all the other factors, I thought for sure he would go 8 years old. He was close to full curl, but admitedly I thought he would be borderline, just thought he would make it on age. All I can say is to advise people to PLEASE do not shoot a ram that is less than full curl for sure, unless you have some way to prove to a court that you know more than a F&G biologist. This ram is a little over 35" and has 14" bases. F&G aged him at 6, that's how bad I was. Yeah I already know how stupid it was, just hope others can learn from this. Interstingly, the ram I shot two years ago that F&G aged at 8 (he was full curl also), the wildlife trooper aged yesterday at 7, and for the life of me I can't figure out how the biologist aged him at 8 based on the criteria he aged this ram.
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    Member AK_Stick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    Our "standard" when guiding for sheep is the regulation requires the sheep be full curl to be legal. That means the tip of the horn must at least intersect a straight edge placed at the base of the leading edge of the horn.
    The secondary criteria such as age or broken (broomed) were intended to allow for the harvest of animals that would never reach the standard of full curl. Age for those animals that the flare was such that the tip would never reach the "full curl" plane at the base; broken or broom for the same reason.
    The criteria of age and/or broken were not intended to create "loop holes" to the full curl regulation. Unfortunately some are applying them in that manner. I'm certain more citations will follow.
    Too bad.
    Joe (Ak)

    What do you feel is a "loop hole" in the regulation?

    Not trying to flame or start anything, I'm just a completely novice sheep hunter who's genuinely interested in staying legal in the letter, and intent of the law.

    It seems to me, on the surface, the age/broomed/full curl is much the same as the 50 inch/4brow tine/spike fork rules for moose, I just don't see how you could make that into a "loop hole"

    care to explain?

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    Member sharksinthesalsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfoot View Post
    Interstingly, the ram I shot two years ago that F&G aged at 8 (he was full curl also), the wildlife trooper aged yesterday at 7, and for the life of me I can't figure out how the biologist aged him at 8 based on the criteria he aged this ram.



    7 and not full curl
    "early to bed, early to rise, fish like hell, and make up lies"

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    They definitely need to add a broomed/not broomed section to the regulations. There is a gray area there, but some pictures of rams that were confiscated on that basis would be really helpful if included in the regs.

    I took a good friend sheep hunting on her 14C permit a week ago and she spent most of this past week in there again. Unsuccessful. We saw three rams that were verrrrry close. We talked about it in camp at length, and at the end of the day we decided that we just couldn't pull the trigger. I would put money on the fact that they would have been 8 years old due to their mass, but we never could count that many rings (and besides, I had always told myself I wouldn't count on that criteria). It's probably killing me more than her to have such a treasured tag go unfilled, but we would both rather err on the side of caution than risk killing a sub-legal ram.

    Hopefully the regs will be clarified in the future and folks will learn from discussions such as these.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharksinthesalsa View Post



    7 and not full curl
    Wrong. Like I said, they aged him at 6. First year was the lamb tip a few inches from the tip, and second year was all the way at your second line. Your first line was no where near a growth ring according to the bio.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    If the bio's 2nd line was in the same spot as the pic, how did they not age it at 7.5? Either way, shouldn't have been a shooter.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackfoot View Post
    Wrong. Like I said, they aged him at 6. First year was the lamb tip a few inches from the tip, and second year was all the way at your second line. Your first line was no where near a growth ring according to the bio.

  12. #12

    Default ?????

    According to the way they aged it, 6 lines equals 6 years old. So 6.5 years old or whatever, but not 7. There would have to be a 7th line at the base to complete the 7th year of growth, which I thought there was. Also thought there was a year in between the lamb tip and the second ring. Didn't say it was a shooter, just trying to help people NOT make the same mistake. Keep in mind it's a lot closer to full curl than it looks from this angle, but still not full. The biggest thing people should know is to not follow some of the comments of past on this forum. I have seen some illude to "if it's close they never question it", "as long as it comes through the eye it's OK", etc. I even had one official involved that used to be a sheep guide say that he may have shot it, but there was still no leeway given, and correctly so.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Premium Member denalihunter's Avatar
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    Default Nice horns...

    All I can say is that's one of the largest set of ewe horns I've ever seen!
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  14. #14

    Default Thanks

    Thanks Claude. You get to pay my fine for that smart a$^ comment :-)
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wantj43 View Post
    Our "standard" when guiding for sheep is the regulation requires the sheep be full curl to be legal. That means the tip of the horn must at least intersect a straight edge placed at the base of the leading edge of the horn.
    The secondary criteria such as age or broken (broomed) were intended to allow for the harvest of animals that would never reach the standard of full curl. Age for those animals that the flare was such that the tip would never reach the "full curl" plane at the base; broken or broom for the same reason.
    The criteria of age and/or broken were not intended to create "loop holes" to the full curl regulation. Unfortunately some are applying them in that manner. I'm certain more citations will follow.
    Too bad.
    Joe (Ak)
    Thank you Joe. I appreciate your perspective and thoughtful answer. I hade never looked at broomed/broken and 8 years old that way, but it certainly adds a new dimension to my thought.

    I would also add that it is almost impossible to age sheep by looking at pictures and drawing lines on the horns. For the later years growth you need to look at the back of the horns where you can see the annuli make a depression. It is too easy to be fooled by false annuli when viewing from the side. In the field I usually can not determine annuli in the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the horn.

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    It seems that a lot of guys including F&G are calling rams broomed that merely have part of their lamb tips rubbed off.

    This is AKCubs ram he shot that I took a pic of a couple years ago. Notice his lamb tips are kind of rounded/rubbed. Not broken/broomed. I've seem other similar pics on the forums and guy are calling them broomed. Maybe it's just the photos but is doesn't seem so. When we spotted, stalked and shot this ram neither one of us even considered he was broomed. He was shot based on age. We couldn't get the right angle to say full curl for sure but knew he was close. But we saw him from above and behind at 165yds and his rings really stood out. Like Chisana mentioned above.



    Now here's a broomer. Silvertipgriz's DCUA ram we got a few years back. No question this guys a broomer. Both horns were busted and jagged. I figure if a broomed ram is not obvious then he's probably not broomed.


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    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Both of those above rams are good, by their age. The top one, although worn it looks more pronounced, and has a "broom like affect" but he also has the age. The bottom is definetly "Broomed" (assuming the other side is the same). Good Rams!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kahahawai View Post
    "broom like affect"
    It seems this is what is getting guys in trouble. And yup, the broomer was broomed on both sides. Thus making him a real broomer.

  19. #19
    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Default Another Question

    Does it seem like, most of the sub-legal Rams are being taken by resident hunters doing it for the first time??? the ones that I know, were all first time sheep hunters.

  20. #20
    Member Rod in Wasilla's Avatar
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    Joe- In regards to brooming, the regs seem pretty clear to me. For a ram to be legal in a "Full Curl" area, it must meet one of three criteria.
    1. A full curl ram.
    2. A ram with the tips of both horns BROKEN.
    3. A ram at least 8 years old.
    No amount of "wear" is going to make a horn broomed. Broomed is broken.

    Here's a few pics of my grandfather's double broomed ram. They clearly show what brooming looks like; broken and jagged, not smooth and rounded. I agree with Snyd... most broomed tips are obvious. And if brooming is what you're basing your shot on, it better be obvious. If you find yourself saying "I think" or "probably" or "it could be", well... I think you probably could be getting yourself into a heap o' trouble. Of course, if you're basing your shot on age or even full curl, you need to be just as sure.




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