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Thread: Boy the BS get piled higher & deeper!

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    Angry Boy the BS get piled higher & deeper!


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    Default turn bad into a good

    That's bad but its done now.

    How can we try to turn it into a good? One idea I had (that yes, I did suggest to our previous Guv, but don't get me started there...) is for our present Guv to put in place a 6 month special rule that allows any Alaskan to give any other Alaskan ANY game meat that is already legally harvested, to those in the interior that need it most, with little/simple paperwork.

    So, no new game deaths result, just sharing. (including the type of game meat sharing that is today either illegal or onerous, paperworkwise).

    Could be just a little one page emergency measure that has limited time duration, solely intended to both help people that need it and help people that have the ability to help others do just that, easily.

    Or do I live in a dream world where the possibility of Alaskans with food to share might be able to share it with those that are in great need, might be possible?

    Lastly, I reiterate, I propose that zero additional game meat be allowed to be harvested, merely that it be allowed to be re-allocated from those who'd like to give, to those in need.

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    Default Send them farmed fish?

    Looks like the state needs to buy up a bunch of farmed salmon and send it to the bush.

    I've always wondered about the counters anyway - it is hard enough to measure oil flowing through a pipe accurately and we base peoples lifes on counting fish swimming up a big muddy river.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    The bad news first: Recent bans on king salmon fishing on the Yukon River have regional leaders predicting this winter will be even tougher than last, when some villagers reported they couldn't afford to buy both food and heating fuel.
    Story tools



    Plus, it turns out a sonar station used to count salmon -- a key source of cash and food along the river -- wasn't working correctly. More fish were making it upriver than estimated, meaning some of the restrictions may not have been necessary.
    "We took some unprecedented measures because we thought the run was looking (to be) one of the poorest we've ever had," said Russ Holder, Yukon River federal fisheries manager. "In hindsight, it doesn't look as poor as those numbers indicated to us."
    The good news? By allowing so many fish to make it across the border, Alaska met its treaty obligation to Canada for the first time in three years. The agreement requires that enough kings reach the border to ensure strong future runs -- plus leave the Canadians a few fish of their own to eat and sell.

    P.H.D. Obama will surely take the credit for this one now won't he...

    but once agian... that argument...

    they belong to everyone, as long as i get mine, Clause...


    Strikes again..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Looks like the state needs to buy up a bunch of farmed salmon and send it to the bush.
    Probably send $$ instead.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Quote Originally Posted by TWB View Post
    Probably send $$ instead.

    well this is one of those danged if you do...

    danged if you don't moments...


    had the runs fully crashed, as is happening in the mat valley this season.. there would be large our cry for assistance.


    had the runs been marginal.. there would have been a cry for assistance

    had the runs been exceptional.. there would have been cries for assistance because the other group got more then they did.



    not to mention.

    the arguments started over management of the run.. allotment to the subsistence users the commercial group, and personal use.

    as it is... all did with out this year. all ensured that the run will come back strong on this return. ( later)

    and the

    "they belong to everyone, as long as we got ours" argument gets stalled for yet one more year.

    but in the long run. the managers of the run. get hit for either letting it dwindle, or hit again for taking proactive measures to ensure it's recovery. danged if you do danged if you don't
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Never ends, does it Vince?
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Default send 'em farmed fish!

    We really need to send them fish - we don't want to interfere with their traditional subsistance lifestyle etc.

    They don't have a problem with imported oil; imported fish shouldn't be a problem either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TWB View Post
    Probably send $$ instead.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    We really need to send them fish - we don't want to interfere with their traditional subsistance lifestyle etc.
    I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but there is nothing traditional about PCB and antibiotic-laced fish that has been dyed to have a nice, even flesh color.

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    If they are going to err, I would rather they get it wrong on the side of conservation. With a good run up stream maybe we will get another good run, or two, in a few years.

    And no one should be forced to eat farmed fish. It is not natural and not healthy. Fish are not equiped to digest corn, which is what they are fed, and they end up tasting like crap.
    It ain't about the # of pounds of meat we bring back, nor about how much we spent to go do it. Its about seeing what no one else sees.

    http://wouldieatitagainfoodblog.blogspot.com/

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    Default No need for stupidity...

    on this forum, the state needs to ACCURATLY report numbers! They're messing with peoples livelyhoods here...


    & Vince you danged well better believe that the State will get dinged for this from many on the Yukon & Why shouldn't they?

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    Default What is the issue here?

    Not sure what the issue is here that is being discussed. Some of the posts sound very borderline relative to native subsistence uses. I do not think they serve any purpose.

    However, relative to the sonar counting operations it has been known for years that trying to count in the Yukon is not a good situation. Too many factors impact the counts and therefore people's lives. However, managers like to have numbers and sometimes managers over extend the data. At best I would think these are index counts not absolute counts.

    One must be careful when using counts to the precision ADF&G and the Federal biologist are using them. For example, today in the paper it says the downriver counts are low because of counts at Eagle. I assume the counts at Eagle are sonar counts so who is to say which one is correct? They reported 55,000 vs 70,000. I do not know if the 70,000 represents the total for the season or if more are to come but I can tell you that the difference between 55 and 70 is not meaningful if they are total for the season. The sonars just do not have that accuracy.

    So I was trying to figure out what the real story is about - two different sonar counts, one being used to make a treaty goal but to do that it requires saying the other counter undercounted? Who says either counter is correct or even close to the true number of fish entering the system. When one tries to count in the Yukon I believe they are really pissing into the wind - too many variables to make much more than an index count at best.

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    From the article- bold added... "Plus, it turns out a sonar station used to count salmon -- a key source of cash and food along the river -- wasn't working correctly."

    Does it mean that the sonar was actually broken, or does that mean that the sonar's margin of error was higher than usual? Just because the sonar did not count an exact number of fish doesn't mean it wasn't "working correctly." To work correctly, it is my understanding that it just has to count within a certain range of accuracy, or inaccuracy, depending on one's perception of the sonar.

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    Default Yes, yes, and yes

    Right on all three counts!

    Quote Originally Posted by gogoalie View Post
    on this forum, the state needs to ACCURATLY report numbers! They're messing with peoples livelyhoods here...

    & Vince you danged well better believe that the State will get dinged for this from many on the Yukon & Why shouldn't they?

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    The State folks were very upfront throughout the summer, repeatedly stating that they felt that the sonar counts from Pilot Station were conservative, due to the very high water and flooding this spring.

    Instead of attacking the State, I'm going to be trying to work with them to find better ways to assess the strength of the run as the fish enter the lower river. The A-Y-K region has always been kind of a stepchild when it comes to funding, hopefully their take home message is that they need more and better tools to manage things.

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    Default Let them eat farmed salmon

    The farmed salmon in not dyed. The fish are instead fed nutritional supplements to make their flesh turn pink instead of the natural gray. This is similar to pelicans needing to eat shrimp so they will have pink feathers or the bright yellow yolks in free range chicken eggs. It is appearence only with no nutrional significance.

    I'm not sure where the PCB thing came from but PCBs are not the deadly poision they are played up to be. Last time I checked there was no evidence that anyone had ever suffered any permanent effects from PCBs. The LD 50 amount is something like half a liter - that will give some idea of the toxic nature.

    As to eating corn and antibiotics - I assume you enjoy a good steak occasionaly? Cows don't naturally eat corn either as you well know and they give them and other animals we eat antibotics also.

    The salmon farmers provide a "nice service" by providing fresh salmon year round to the American consumer. In the long run they may actually help the market for Alaskan salmon by introducing more people to salmon as part of their diets.

    In reference to subject of the tread the state could help the Yukon population out by providing traditional fish in off years. Farmed slamon is a lot closer to the traditional diet than hamburgers!


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but there is nothing traditional about PCB and antibiotic-laced fish that has been dyed to have a nice, even flesh color.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Default not true

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    The farmed salmon in not dyed. The fish are instead fed nutritional supplements to make their flesh turn pink instead of the natural gray. This is similar to pelicans needing to eat shrimp so they will have pink feathers or the bright yellow yolks in free range chicken eggs. It is appearence only with no nutrional significance.

    I'm not sure where the PCB thing came from but PCBs are not the deadly poision they are played up to be. Last time I checked there was no evidence that anyone had ever suffered any permanent effects from PCBs. The LD 50 amount is something like half a liter - that will give some idea of the toxic nature.

    As to eating corn and antibiotics - I assume you enjoy a good steak occasionaly? Cows don't naturally eat corn either as you well know and they give them and other animals we eat antibotics also.

    The salmon farmers provide a "nice service" by providing fresh salmon year round to the American consumer. In the long run they may actually help the market for Alaskan salmon by introducing more people to salmon as part of their diets.

    In reference to subject of the tread the state could help the Yukon population out by providing traditional fish in off years. Farmed slamon is a lot closer to the traditional diet than hamburgers!
    Tv - not sure where you get your information but most of what you posted is not correct - no offense. I will look for the references but farm fish were dyed but consumers objected and they sought to find a supplemental feed to color the flesh. At last report I had that was not working very well - may have changed.

    Antibiotics in cows, fish, horses, chickens, and the rest are all of a concern to people. That is one reason the organic movements is so strong. Studies are showing that this stuff is showing up in our water supplies along with estogen and other chemicals. Fish are showing the impacts in a number of locations -

    PCB's - come on - your reference to an LD50 is for what - that is not the measure anyone uses to measure impacts on humans. That is a dose where 50 percent of the population dies. Cancer and other impacts are at much lower levels so you should be more in line with conventional standards of impacts on humans, not some LD50 number which has little meaning.

    Farm salmon is more of a drain on the ocean environment that wild raised salmon. To provide feed commercial harvest of bait fish is made in large numbers and has led to depletion of some of these stocks. It also concentrates polluants in the feed via bioaccumulation so farmed salmon are of concern relative to these chemicals.

    Farm fish are not cheap to raise and the markets are showing that - farmed production is down in countries that refuse to support via grants and federal funds these operations. It is very expensive to raise a fish to market size.

    Finally, how do you know what a traditional diet is for natives along the Yukon? That is a large area and the mix of food over a year is probably pretty varied. I think we should let the population out there speak for themselves on what they need.

    If you have references for your statements on PCB's I assume GE would like to see them. They are spending millions to dredge them out of the Hudson River.

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    "Since 1982, the use of artificial coloring in farmed salmon has more than tripled. One of the most commonly used colorants, Canthaxanthin, has been linked to human eye defects and retinal damage."

    "According to the Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Reform, farmed salmon are fed more antibiotics per pound of body weight than any other livestock animal in North America."

    "Although the U.S. EPA recommends eating salmon no more than once or twice a week, a 2004 study by independent researchers found much higher levels of toxic contaminants in farmed salmon than previously thought. These scientists recommended as little as one serving of salmon per month"

    "People who regularly eat farmed salmon face a higher, though still poorly understood, risk of retinal damage, cancer, resistance to antibiotics, and harm to reproductive and other organs."

    Reference
    Reference
    Reference

    tvfinak, would you rather eat a farmed salmon or a wild salmon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    The farmed salmon in not dyed. The fish are instead fed nutritional supplements to make their flesh turn pink instead of the natural gray. This is similar to pelicans needing to eat shrimp so they will have pink feathers or the bright yellow yolks in free range chicken eggs. It is appearence only with no nutrional significance.
    Flamingos, nor pelicans have pink feathers. Those eggs with the bright yellow yolks are more nutritious than the dull yellow of other eggs. And "Free Range" is a crock of BS. They give a 20'x20' yard to birds that must live in a large chicken house for 5 weeks before the door is opened. Then the chickens are killed at 8 weeks. It is much more than apearance.

    The farmed salmon in not dyed. The fish are instead fed nutritional supplements to make their flesh turn pink instead of the natural gray. This is similar to pelicans needing to eat shrimp so they will have pink feathers or the bright yellow yolks in free range chicken eggs. It is appearence only with no nutrional significance.
    If farmed salmon are not dyed, then why are they being sued to stop dying their product?

    As to eating corn and antibiotics - I assume you enjoy a good steak occasionaly? Cows don't naturally eat corn either as you well know and they give them and other animals we eat antibotics also.
    Actualy that corn the cow is forced to eat makes it sick, and combined with the close quaters at CAFOs is why they need antibiotics. When we eat corn fed beef it is not good for our health. But other nations that eat as much or more wild or pasture fed meat do not have the same health problems. That is why I hunt and fish. To provide as much healthy meat for the table as I can.

    The salmon farmers provide a "nice service" by providing fresh salmon year round to the American consumer. In the long run they may actually help the market for Alaskan salmon by introducing more people to salmon as part of their diets.
    Salmon farmers do a disservice to americans by trying to sell them an inferior product at near equal price. Their product is not as tasty or nutritious, and is posibly (likely) enviromentaly harmful. I know people who refuse to try wild alaska salmon because of the taste of farmed atlantic salmon.

    In reference to subject of the tread the state could help the Yukon population out by providing traditional fish in off years. Farmed slamon is a lot closer to the traditional diet than hamburgers!
    The truth is that the villagers would be better off if the state gave them neither farmed aslmon or corn fed beef burgers, but instead spent the money nescisary to understand the problems in the wild runs and find ways to boost the wild runs. In the mean time giving/subsidizing WILD alskan salmon for them to eat is the best bet.
    It ain't about the # of pounds of meat we bring back, nor about how much we spent to go do it. Its about seeing what no one else sees.

    http://wouldieatitagainfoodblog.blogspot.com/

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    Thumbs down farmed wildlife = wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    The salmon farmers provide a "nice service"
    Farmed wildlife in all forms is wrong. And it has often proven disastrous to their wild counterparts, like in the case of fish farms causing pollution that hurt wild fish and deer/elk farms that are the main culprits for causing and spreading the mad-cow-disease through the wild herds Outside - and its still spreading very quickly, today.

    Its impossible to farm wildlife without some of the critters sneaking back into the wild, transferring their problems to the entire wild population. This too has been proven.

    Also farmed wildlife creates a version of what was a fine healthy wild animal into a disease-ridden wannabe meat that ate where it crapped every day of its life. How yummy is that farmed salmon sounding now?

    Wildlife should not be farmed.

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