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  1. #1

    Default dolt

    Alright, so, ahem, well, see the thing is, ahhh...I'm just not sure how to ask this...so...Ok, I've always run Remington 220 gr sp's for moose, well, I got to looking at a ballistics table on Remington's site and 180's have more ft / lb's downrange than the 220's...so 'splain this for me, please...I suppose with the extra mass the 220 has more momentum, but with the 300-500 extra ft/lb's of energy and 400-500 ft / sec of velocity, will a 180 gr bronze point have more knockdown?

    Take it easy on me, some things are just not easy to talk about...

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  2. #2
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    Tell you what, I shot my first moose with a .375 H&H using 300 grain Federal softs. The bullet went through the lung, into the rumen, and stopped. I was 30 feet from the moose. The moose twitched and looked at me.

    Which has more "knockdown" power: the 180 grain, 220 grain 30-caliber, or 300 grain .375-caliber (this bullet was packing 1600 ft./lbs more than your 180g '06)?
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    and last year i shot one quatering toward me... at 100 yards just in front edge of the between brisket and shoulder. and knocked his socks off... sat him on his hinney and fell over backwards... ( first time ever)... with a 180 gn... in my 300WM... by the time i got down to it... was still alive.. needed a finish shot.. but the shock had him unable to move...

    the one the day before was shot 2 times with a 375 HH... at 40 yards and twice more with a 44 before deceased...


    then there was the one i shot with a 55 gn FMJ 223 an dropped in its tracks stone dead...


    the 45 70 that didnt kill it but made it hurt so bad it lay down and a 9mm finished...

    the one with the 7 mm RM that looked at me so i shot it again...

    the one with the 338 that ran like is ass was afire.. only to drop suddenly 45 yards later..

    the one that 300 wm lung shot walked over to the trees and went to sleep..

    the one...

    the one that.....


    you know what? i think it depends on the moose..
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  4. #4

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    On my moose hunt last year, I took the first shot with my .338 225 grain core lokt, my buddy took the follow up shot with his .308 165 grain something or other, neither penetrated completely, both did considerable damage and both would have killed her in quick order.

    Answer: Shoot whichever one you and your rifle shoots better. Dont worry about ft lbs and down range velocity and blah blah blah, shot placement is key. Shot placement is the difference between a dead moose and a gut shot moose that runs a few hundred yards or a few miles.

  5. #5

    Default choices...

    I quit paying much attention to "energy" figures along time ago. I am sure it means something, but is to complicated and iffy for me. I do pay lots of attention to impact velocity, bullet construction, expansion and retained weight. Most of the 220 grain .30 caliber bullets kill moose quit well and are an ok choice. I like 200 grain Nosler Partitions and 180 grain Barnes X bullets for the 30-06. About any "tough" 180 grain .30 caliber bullet will do the job also.

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    Member MARV1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    Tell you what, I shot my first moose with a .375 H&H using 300 grain Federal softs. The bullet went through the lung, into the rumen, and stopped. I was 30 feet from the moose. The moose twitched and looked at me.

    Which has more "knockdown" power: the 180 grain, 220 grain 30-caliber, or 300 grain .375-caliber (this bullet was packing 1600 ft./lbs more than your 180g '06)?
    I remember that one quite well, good thing you had a backup shooter.

    Waiting for you to come out here again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    and last year i shot one quatering toward me... at 100 yards just in front edge of the between brisket and shoulder. and knocked his socks off... sat him on his hinney and fell over backwards... ( first time ever)... with a 180 gn... in my 300WM... by the time i got down to it... was still alive.. needed a finish shot.. but the shock had him unable to move...

    the one the day before was shot 2 times with a 375 HH... at 40 yards and twice more with a 44 before deceased...


    then there was the one i shot with a 55 gn FMJ 223 an dropped in its tracks stone dead...


    you know what? i think it depends on the moose..
    I prefer the 55g soft points in my son's 22/250, or my backup rifle.

    220g loads are only better than 180's out to 150yards max. 180's shoot way flatter and maintain their energy better. Now 165g Hornady Light Magnums are even better yet.
    The emphasis is on accuracy, not power!

  7. #7
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    The only thing that'll reliably knockdown a moose is an 18wheeler or a train. There are many balistic terms that are simply bs, and knockdown is one of them.

    What bullets do is destroy vital organs (when placed properly) and that results in death. The bullet does that damage by creating a wound channel. That channel has both a dia and depth. You can affect the dia and depth of that wound by changing the construction of the bullet, and its impact velocity. In theory one can correlate the potential energy of the bullet at impact to the wound, but the bullets construction has a much bigger efect on that wound than the energy. Take that same 220 gr bullet weight and shape, but construct one as a solid, and one as a varmint bullet. They'll be a huge difference in terminal performance between the three bullets, despite the fact that they hit with the potential energy and velocity.

    To me the only advantage of the better aerodynamics of the 180 spitzer is it'll increase the range at which it'll arrive at 1700 fps, which IMHO is the minimal impact velocity to get consistant performance from expanding bullets. But, it's not going to be a huge increase in range over the 220. And for consistant performance on game, a heavy for caliber rn launched at ~2400 fps and zeroed at 200 yds is darn hard to beat. The open right on up, and have enough weight to drive fairly deep. They also aren't driven so fast as to have to worry about the bullet coming unglued.

  8. #8

    Default mass vs velocity

    When I was homesteading, I took 6 moose with my 35 Whelen, and while the first shot would have killed them all, I usually put a coup de gras in. Thing is, this was a 250 gr. 35 caliber bullet doing about 2400 fps. So, I like the idea of a bullet with more mass then velocity involved but at a reasonable velocity to get it there. Works for me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MARV1 View Post
    I remember that one quite well, good thing you had a backup shooter.
    Waiting for you to come out here again.
    Be nice! I was talking about my first moose. The second moose...well, there were certain extenuating circumstances.

    I'll be going out tomorrow to check the sighting on the monster.

    Now, back to the subject of this thread. The point I was trying to make (paraphrasing Paul H), numbers are fine on paper, hitting the right spot is what counts. And it helps if the really expensive bullet you use holds together.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

  10. #10
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethell View Post
    Alright, so, ahem, well, see the thing is, ahhh...I'm just not sure how to ask this...so...Ok, I've always run Remington 220 gr sp's for moose, well, I got to looking at a ballistics table on Remington's site and 180's have more ft / lb's downrange than the 220's...so 'splain this for me, please...I suppose with the extra mass the 220 has more momentum, but with the 300-500 extra ft/lb's of energy and 400-500 ft / sec of velocity, will a 180 gr bronze point have more knockdown?

    Take it easy on me, some things are just not easy to talk about...
    Bigger is not always better...

    Lets start with the pressure capacity of the .06 case. I'm not a reloading/ballistics guru but whatever the limit is there is a limit.

    The 220 grain is 20% heavier and since caliber is the same, longer than the 180 grain. It takes more force to get a 220 gr moving. Given the pressure limits of the cartridge there's only so much push available to drive the bullet. All else being equal, the 180 gr leaves the barrel fast enough to compensate for the 20% difference in weight.

    It's gets cosmic factoring in barrel length, powder type, bullet design and ballistic coefficient but basically given the pressure limits of any given cartridge there is an optimum bullet weight. In the .06 the 220gr is well past that optimum.

    Also, the ballistic performance of the 180gr lets you shoot out to ranges for which the .06 was designed for with enough energy to kill a moose cleanly (400 yds)

    *Disclaimer* If Murphy contradicts anything I posted...I happily defer to his superior knowledge

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