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Thread: A Plea For Civility

  1. #1
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default A Plea For Civility

    As a fisherman and as a moderator, the Fisheries Management Forum is both one of my most and least favorite parts of this site. When folks are respectful and helpful, great dialogue can be had and solutions can be found to concerns within our fishing community. When folks are accusatory and spiteful, any potential benefits that this forum may provide are lost amid the divisiveness. As of late some here have let vitriol become the norm. I do believe that all involved in these discussions really do want what's best for the fisheries, but too often it becomes about personalities, perceived motivations, and accusations of greed and wrongdoing when others disagree.

    For those that aren't aware, these forums are largely volunteer-run. We cannot read every one of the hundreds of posts made here a day, and for the most part we do not need to. Over the 50 forums we provide, our members do a good job of self-policing - living up to a standard of civility and mutual respect. For some reason, that has not held true as often on this particular forum.

    Please help me turn things around here. The tension in the recent threads are not the fault of any one member or group of members. Even when others choose to take the low road, my request to each of you is to set a better example. At the same time, please use the "report post" button to keep me apprised of blatant rule violations so that I can help clean up threads that run awry. When threads run too far off course they at times must be closed, but overall my hope is that we can continue to dialogue with respect for one another (no matter how wrong the other guy may be ). Thank you.

    -Brian M

  2. #2
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    Default Right On!

    I've certainly been a point of attack but so far this year I have been more sucessfully in bitting my lip and trying to refrain from caustic replies. I do pledge to try even harder to keep things on track - hopefully other will do the same. I think we have all learned a lot, even if it is only to recognize others' points of view.

    Perhaps we should start a seperate thread for insults, accusations, and intents where everyone can rant and rave and keep the other threads on course?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  3. #3

    Default Your plea is a good idea :)

    I have stayed out (the posting part anyway) for the most part this year but I have watched these guys go at it for long enough that I can tell you (ok well sometimes I am shocked....) what they are going to post before they do it. But, every once in a long while, a good conversation is started and I learn something new. For example, just today I learned that salmon in CI swim exactly 5.1 miles per day Who knew?

  4. #4
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    Default No interest

    It is interesting that only two of us have reponded to Brian's "Plea for Civitity" - and one of us isn't posting this year.

    It is hard to ignore all the insults, mis-quoted, had my "intent" interpreted for me, etc. but I'm trying to participate in a civial manner- learning a few things and hopefully adding something worthwhile to the discusssion while still biting my tongue.


    Quote Originally Posted by T.R. Bauer View Post
    I have stayed out (the posting part anyway) for the most part this year but I have watched these guys go at it for long enough that I can tell you (ok well sometimes I am shocked....) what they are going to post before they do it. But, every once in a long while, a good conversation is started and I learn something new. For example, just today I learned that salmon in CI swim exactly 5.1 miles per day Who knew?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  5. #5
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    Default it is hard sometimes

    Tv - I and others may have sent a PM to Brian but you are correct. It is hard sometimes. Hope you understand that I try to present data.

    T.R just for the record the swim speed is 5.1333439768574798765 miles per day.

  6. #6
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    I have to agree with Brian... i don't get to go fishing as much any more and have never participated on the KP....


    and the stuff i read really makes me less inclined to want to.... ( HM fine one less rod i know) however.. i am going to be more inclined to vote at the BOF meetings in favor of higher user fees and such.. just because of all the spoiled tantrums that get tossed around.... there are few threads here i enjoy reading....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  7. #7
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    Default Agree to disagree peacefully

    Nerka-

    Although we have different opinions of certain things and interpret things in different manners we have generally maintained a civil maner in conducting our discusstions - I do appreciate that - THANKS! I do get quite tired - as you do - of being mis-quoted, "intents" interpreted, quoted out of context etc. etc.

    I wish that others - on BOTH sides - would try to improve on our example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Tv - I and others may have sent a PM to Brian but you are correct. It is hard sometimes. Hope you understand that I try to present data.

    T.R just for the record the swim speed is 5.1333439768574798765 miles per day.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  8. #8

    Default

    Thanks for the clarification, Nerka on the speed of the fish. But, could you please express that as a fraction? I really have a hard time with big, long decimal numbers....LOL

  9. #9
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Default

    I appreciate the sentiment, Brian. If I am called a liar for presenting my side of the story on management issues I will defend my honour in word at least. Its only fair. I would hope that those who disagree with me and my interpretations of the data, as well as my own field observations, would do so civilly and just agree to disagree. When what I see with my own two eyes does not mesh with someone elses interpretation of a study or a data set, I will say so. I will try to stay civil, even in the face of slanderous accusations of trying to intentionally mislead the public or lying.

  10. #10
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    Default the issue is knowledge

    I joined this forum to help people understand UCI fishery management issues and in that context try to bring knowledge to the forum participants. I am not claiming to have complete knowledge - no one does on UCI - but there are areas that people have expert knowledge in - guides know how their fishery operates, joe fisherman understands what conflicts they perceive to be happening, biologists on the forum like Akkona, Bfish, and myself bring biological knowledge, and others provide data sometimes.

    However, it appears to me that the forum also has a number of people who do not want knowledge but just want space to express opinion whether it is based in fact or not. Opinion is fine if based on a common understanding of the issue for that can provide perspective. However, for a number of issues on this forum there appears to be a refusal to accept data or even try to understand the issue. Some want to try to be experts in areas they have no training or practical knowledge of the subject and when asked for supporting data or to read recent reports refuse to do so. They take what space but provide no useful perspective.

    The recent debate over migratory rates of Fish Creek sockeye is a good example. Just making up migratory rates and then coming to a conclusion that is not based on any science at all does no one any good. It confuses the issue and brings people to frustration. The bogus information is on the table and must be refuted.

    Other examples include the issue of sockeye overescapement, windows and their impact, management plans that people tend not to read but comment on, and the list can go on.

    It would appear to me that if this forum is going to do anything other than be a place just to sound off we must require some level of knowledge on the participants if they state a position. They should be able in the comment to provide the data that supports their position. If they cannot do this they should ask questions rather than state positions.

    Using the Fish Creek migratory rate example if the questions had been asked about what data are available on migratory rates, exploitation rates in the commercial fishery, or what reasons Fish Creek fish came back this year knowledge could have been on the table before a posting of a conclusion. At least if someone took the time to read the reports or ask the questions then we would all be further ahead.

    Not to pick on Fish Creek as the understanding of a BEG in the Kenai chinook and sockeye escapement goal discussion had the same problems. Some did ask questions and in my opinion that allowed for us to explore the issue. Others made the leap management failed because they were at the lower end of the BEG.

    Just a suggestion to ask questions, see if we can agree on a data set, and then come to some perspective rather than jump on the opinion page first.

  11. #11

    Wink

    I feel that the real problem is that too many "professionals" come on here trying to impress others. For what reason, only they know. I would much prefer to read posts of those that actually live the experiences, than from those that study them. I simply don't trust "studies" because they are ALWAYS agenda driven by those orchestrating them.

    Tell me about how many fish you caught, didn't catch and the reasons why. Not some bogus notion about how you looked at a bunch of data, prepared by someone else and came to a "definative conclusion" for the way things are.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  12. #12
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    Default ahhhhhh

    Ignorance is bliss.

  13. #13

    Default The Measure of a Man

    1. How he handles criticism.
    2. How he handles praise.

    'nuff said.

    ~tr

  14. #14
    Member BlueMoose's Avatar
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    Default Well Said

    As always B our consistant course is always appreciated.

    Ok I am a big suck up but hey B is 100% correct nothing worse than getting a thread swacked.

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