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Thread: 2009 Cook Inlet Commercial Catch

  1. #1

    Default 2009 Cook Inlet Commercial Catch

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    ~tr

  2. #2

    Default Would you buy in to a Business that everyone is tryimg to put you out of business?

    One of the oldest ways of making a living in the history of this world and now-adays it seems every one is out to put an end to it.
    Every commerical permit hold paid thousands of dollars for the right to harvest fish. I paid $85,000.00 for my permit.
    Commerical fishing will be shut down on Monday (just like last year) because not enough fish have reached the counters 19 miles up river.
    I paid thousands for the right to fish - how much did dipnetters pay?
    How much fish does a family need to eat - what is happing to all the fish diped?
    How much is freezer burnt and thrown away?
    How much is going to none Alaskan?
    I see no dipping happing. I do see trawling.
    You know I like seeing Alaskan catching some fish for their Alaskan families to eat - but it is so far out of hand. And to think, I have to miss making a living so people from as far away as Fairbanks can come down to trawl for salmon seems too much.
    And one more think - how fast do you think a salmon travels in a day. A drift boat fisherman does not fish within 14 miles of the month of the river except for one day out of the year. The only other time we fish close is when the politicans make us. If we were to be allowed to fish Monday, most of the boats would be around 60'16".
    By-the-way, the next group of fish will be hitting the river in the last part of next week. That is why we would not be fishing close because the mass is several miles away. On Thursday they were 23 miles out - I figure they travel 4 miles a day so that puts them getting to the river Tuesday to Thursday. They are a fish, so there is no hard set rules on their travel.
    I told you I do not have a problem with local Alaskan's catching food for their table. I just don't see every Alaskan keeping me from making a living.

  3. #3
    Member Arcticwildman's Avatar
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    Default Please spare us

    First off, what Alaskans are keeping you from earning a living? The commercial catch so far this year in the central district alone has been 1,895,119 sockeye. Pretty amazing number considering that there has only been 443K past the counter in the Kenai.

    For every five fish available to be caught, the commercial boats have caught four. You're leaving one out of five fish to escape upriver and ***** that you aren't getting enough??!!

    Unreal.

  4. #4
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default Winnie, here are some numbers

    First off, let me apologize for those idiots that have hit you boat while dipping. These are the exceptions and not the rule.
    Now on those dipnetted fish. The average Alaska household consists of 2.78 people. Federal Govt. Census. The state gives out roughly 21,500 household permits each year. Give or take a couple of thousands like the increase this year. The average take for all dipnetters, each year, is @ 275,000 total for South-central, Kenai and Kasilof. Do the math. It breaks down to @ 4.5 fish per person, per year. I do not find that excessive. Many many people don't fill their permits each year. I believe the math says 4.5 X 2.78 Equals about 12.5. Again, I don't find that excessive.
    I know you paid good money for that permit but that permit gives you access, it does not garauntee you a % of fish. There lies the problem. I'm not painting you with a broad stroke of a brush but a lot of Commercial Fishers believe those are their fish.
    Look at the Recent Federal lawsuits filed by commercial fishers. In Jensen's suit, he claims that the fish thatdipnetters take are fish that he can't sell for a profit, so he wants reimbursement or a remedy. What does that say for you? That tells me he wants those dipnetted fish back. Enough said.
    Have a good one, Ken SCADA

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    Default Thin Ice, Man... Thin Ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by winnie View Post
    One of the oldest ways of making a living in the history of this world and now-adays it seems every one is out to put an end to it.
    Every commerical permit hold paid thousands of dollars for the right to harvest fish. I paid $85,000.00 for my permit. (Like we don't pay for our "right" to fish in other ways... parking, supplies, gas, goods)
    Commerical fishing will be shut down on Monday (just like last year) because not enough fish have reached the counters 19 miles up river.
    I paid thousands for the right to fish - how much did dipnetters pay? (You don't pay for the "right" you pay for the privilege and opportunity)
    How much fish does a family need to eat - what is happing to all the fish diped? (I have a limit of 65 and we eat ALL of it and we run out before dipnetting starts again)
    How much is freezer burnt and thrown away? (None at this house and many others I know, it gets canned or smoked so it does not go to waste. How much bycatch do you throw away?)
    How much is going to none Alaskan? (probably some but it really isn't any of your business where it goes now is it? How much of your commercial money stays in Alaska? How many lower 48 people do comm's employ? Where are your fish going, I bet it's only a small portion going to Alaska. How much goes to the lower 48?)
    I see no dipping happing. I do see trawling. (You work hard for your fish, so do we. Just in different ways)
    You know I like seeing Alaskan catching some fish for their Alaskan families to eat - but it is so far out of hand. And to think, I have to miss making a living so people from as far away as Fairbanks can come down to trawl for salmon seems too much. (Your ticked about the lack of fish, it's not dipnetters fault - how much did the commercial harvest get the first two weeks of the season? You need to understand that the amount of fish harvested by dipnetting is only a fraction of the fish that escape, if we did not dip the numbers would not magically shoot back up to the to hundreds of thousands that the escapement is short of... commercial guys however DO have that kind of impact when your nets are out.)
    And one more think - how fast do you think a salmon travels in a day. A drift boat fisherman does not fish within 14 miles of the month of the river except for one day out of the year. The only other time we fish close is when the politicans make us. (Sounds like you really don't like fishing and you need to find something else to do) If we were to be allowed to fish Monday, most of the boats would be around 60'16".
    By-the-way, the next group of fish will be hitting the river in the last part of next week. That is why we would not be fishing close because the mass is several miles away. On Thursday they were 23 miles out - I figure they travel 4 miles a day so that puts them getting to the river Tuesday to Thursday. They are a fish, so there is no hard set rules on their travel.
    I told you I do not have a problem with local Alaskan's catching food for their table. (only if they use a dipnet, right?) I just don't see every Alaskan keeping me from making a living. (Quit whining, there isn't any fish for the dipnetters either. They UNDERSTAND that the fishing isn't all the commercial guys' fault.)
    You have a lot of nerve blaming a user group that only takes a very small percentage of fish from the resource. You need to relax, drink a beer and get right with mother nature on your expectations from her. If you really want to see a rant, keep posting garbage like this and you'll see things like comparisons, ratios of fishers vs. take of resource, economic studies and most of all some very, very irate people that you ignorantly blame for your gross expectations. You paid for the "right" to fish; that doesn't guarantee a return on investment, we feel the pinch of higher gas prices and cost of goods just like you do; and when there isn't fish we don't blame anyone becuase it's NOBODY'S fault they aren't there, its just the hand that we're dealt. Do you have any idea how many empty coolers there are coming back from the peninsula? How many times have you gone out and come back with an empty hold? We are in the same boat man, let's not squabble about this stuff.
    "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit is better than he who takes a city." ~ Proverbs 16:32

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by winnie View Post
    One of the oldest ways of making a living in the history of this world and now-adays it seems every one is out to put an end to it.
    Every commerical permit hold paid thousands of dollars for the right to harvest fish. I paid $85,000.00 for my permit.
    Commerical fishing will be shut down on Monday (just like last year) because not enough fish have reached the counters 19 miles up river.
    I paid thousands for the right to fish - how much did dipnetters pay?
    How much fish does a family need to eat - what is happing to all the fish diped?
    How much is freezer burnt and thrown away?
    How much is going to none Alaskan?
    I see no dipping happing. I do see trawling.
    You know I like seeing Alaskan catching some fish for their Alaskan families to eat - but it is so far out of hand. And to think, I have to miss making a living so people from as far away as Fairbanks can come down to trawl for salmon seems too much.
    And one more think - how fast do you think a salmon travels in a day. A drift boat fisherman does not fish within 14 miles of the month of the river except for one day out of the year. The only other time we fish close is when the politicans make us. If we were to be allowed to fish Monday, most of the boats would be around 60'16".
    By-the-way, the next group of fish will be hitting the river in the last part of next week. That is why we would not be fishing close because the mass is several miles away. On Thursday they were 23 miles out - I figure they travel 4 miles a day so that puts them getting to the river Tuesday to Thursday. They are a fish, so there is no hard set rules on their travel.
    I told you I do not have a problem with local Alaskan's catching food for their table. I just don't see every Alaskan keeping me from making a living.

    First of all, I don't think it's a lot of fish. With 7 people living in my house, I can get 85 fish. That's only 1 fish per person, per month.

    Secondly, $85,000.00 is a crap load of money for a permit. BUT, I'm sure you knew how much the permit was before you bought it.

    Third, I thought you guys fished out in the ocean. The last time those fish were anywhere near the river was when they were born years ago. The dipnetters and sportfisherman have no chance of catching the fish you catch. A lot of fish still make it upstream to spawn, so there will be some in the future.

    I am probably the most inexperienced fisherman on here, this is only my first year fishing and second post on this forum. I just had to say something...that post made no sense to me.

  7. #7
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Default Shane, stay involved and talk to us

    2nd post? Glad you jumped in. all opinions welcome. That is why this is a forum. Ken

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    Member TYNMON's Avatar
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    Default Here are some stats from the a thread on the fisheries mng board....

    Quote Originally Posted by winnie View Post
    One of the oldest ways of making a living in the history of this world and now-adays it seems every one is out to put an end to it.
    Every commerical permit hold paid thousands of dollars for the right to harvest fish. I paid $85,000.00 for my permit.
    Commerical fishing will be shut down on Monday (just like last year) because not enough fish have reached the counters 19 miles up river.
    I paid thousands for the right to fish - how much did dipnetters pay?
    How much fish does a family need to eat - what is happing to all the fish diped?
    How much is freezer burnt and thrown away?
    How much is going to none Alaskan?
    I see no dipping happing. I do see trawling.
    You know I like seeing Alaskan catching some fish for their Alaskan families to eat - but it is so far out of hand. And to think, I have to miss making a living so people from as far away as Fairbanks can come down to trawl for salmon seems too much.
    And one more think - how fast do you think a salmon travels in a day. A drift boat fisherman does not fish within 14 miles of the month of the river except for one day out of the year. The only other time we fish close is when the politicans make us. If we were to be allowed to fish Monday, most of the boats would be around 60'16".
    By-the-way, the next group of fish will be hitting the river in the last part of next week. That is why we would not be fishing close because the mass is several miles away. On Thursday they were 23 miles out - I figure they travel 4 miles a day so that puts them getting to the river Tuesday to Thursday. They are a fish, so there is no hard set rules on their travel.
    I told you I do not have a problem with local Alaskan's catching food for their table. I just don't see every Alaskan keeping me from making a living.
    [QUOTE=Arcticwildman;540381]On July 20th the Central District comm fishermen harvested 213,244 reds. On the 23rd they harvested 194,212 reds.

    Total catch year to date for the Central District commercial fleet is 1,895,119 reds.

    No firm numbers on the dipnet catch but it is nowhere near 250,000 this year considering the low numbers to date. Probably less than 100,000.[/QUOTE]

    I think these numbers are rather speak for themselves.

  9. #9

    Default Okay, my .02...

    I've been on both sides of the fence; decked for 3 years in Cook Inlet with a great friend of mine (who will be hit hard by the upcoming closure) and now am pretty much a sport-fishing guy. I've been out there on 1,000 fish days and now I'm happy with 3 reds a day. I will say in all honesty that Winnie's complaints are off center, having been involved in both fisheries (I will question whatever on God's green earth possessed someone to pay 85k for a CI permit???). Fishing is just that, fishing. It's not called "catching" in either commercial or recreational/personal use fisheries. Surely you can't realistically complain about the minimal numbers (compared to commercial net fishing) of fish taken by dipnets and even more absurd, those taken by rod & reel? Me & my buddy have fished 9 days straight on the Kenai for reds and have thankfully limited every trip. That's 6 fish per day for 9 days thus far. It costs us 80.00 each for out of state 2 week fishing licenses, 90.00 so far for launching/parking. Some days the fish come fairly quickly (1-3 hours, last 2 days we've put in 12 hours for 12 fish). I consider it an absolute priviledge to be able to come to Alaska and partake of what the Kenai river has to offer, regardless of what it costs to get here, vehicles, food, gas, insurance, on and on. I haven't had the good fortune of being a born & raised Alaskan, but I do admire the enormous undertaking of the fisheries by ADF&G and recognize that being able to harvest some of the fish (remember I've done it both by gillnets & rod/reel) is a complete priviledge and I'm thankful for each day we're able to do it. Anyone who invests into a commercial fishery knows the risks and lack of guarantees involved. I think it's great that Alaskans have the opportunity to dipnet into some of what the Kenai River produces. Come on, give Peace a chance!
    Jim
    Last edited by Big Jim; 07-27-2009 at 00:01. Reason: deleted info

  10. #10

    Default The only fishermen that can not fish Monday are the one's that paid multi thousand.

    Think about it. The only fishermen that can not fish Monday are the one's that paid multi thousands for the right to fish.
    The State of Alaska sold me a contract for the rigth to fish, then years later allowed others to take fish before the counters.
    Sounds like they went against the contract.
    Think about it.

  11. #11
    Member Arcticwildman's Avatar
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    Years later huh???

    Care to share how long you have had your permit? While you are at it, how about an HONEST accounting of your past catches. I have a feeling that you have more than made your original investment money back in spades unless you don't know how to fish.

  12. #12
    Member Dupont Spinner's Avatar
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    Angry You get 1st shot

    You bought your permit on a gamble that the fish were going to be there. You got 1st shot at catching them. The rising costs to do business is hurting everyone. More commercial catch is not the answer to covering your expenses.

    My family eats about 10 to 12 fillets a month. That means if I fill my 55 fish quota, which I will not this year, I will just have enough for the year. So that means I will have to buy more, which means I will be spending more, which then will cost you more as I need to pass on the increase in my grocery bill to you .

    Unfortunate for you your gamble didn't pay off, the processor didn't pay out the big bucks and everyone else got a raise with the increase in the Federal minimum wage increase and by law Alaska will be 50 cents higher, which when all is said and done just cut into your bottom line again real hard.............

    I sympathize with your situation but it's time to figure out how to do business differently to keep it profitable. Not you personally but the whole fishing fleet, including halibut, pollock, etc, to make it work for all. This not the only fishery suffering.

    What the crab fisherman did a few years ago hurt and alot of folks were put out of business and jobs. Those that stayed on are making more money but not neccessarily making a higher profit. As their quota increased so did their expenses.
    Last edited by Dupont Spinner; 07-27-2009 at 00:22. Reason: I need to type faster

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    Member TYNMON's Avatar
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    Default What do you honestly have to complain about???

    Quote Originally Posted by winnie View Post
    Think about it. The only fishermen that can not fish Monday are the one's that paid multi thousands for the right to fish.
    The State of Alaska sold me a contract for the rigth to fish, then years later allowed others to take fish before the counters.
    Sounds like they went against the contract.
    Think about it.


    See the entire center of the graph, either the fish were early and strong, or commercial fleet caught the middle and end of the run.... More likely that commercial fleet was very efficeint at catching middle and taill end of the run.... You need to catch more now?? To make things more complicated the high water may actually be holding fish cack from heading up river and may wait untill the waters start to drop significantly, which isn't likely to start tell after Wenesday and may take weeks to get back to its normal level.

  14. #14

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    the state of alaska sold me a license to fish but they didnt guarantee me fish. I dipnetted 5days for 50 fish with fees for parking and camping but a lot of people went home empty because the commercial guys got extra openings what about those extras when you complain about monday. If a guy takes off from work drive to kenai and dips on a day your not supposed to be out he's out of luck becuse commercial guys cut off most of the fish from coming in . So no one is going to be happy but there are a whole lot more alaskan families going without fish than commercial guys going wiothout. So stop whining you are going to get zero compassion. and how about the boats that come super close to the pepole on the beach just to swamp them there is enough the commercial guys ddo to tick people off also.

  15. #15
    Member Arcticwildman's Avatar
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    Question for you Winnie....how many fish are enough for you?

    The central district comm fish fleet caught 1.9 million reds. How many more do you want?

    It's looking like we can all point fingers at the comm fish fleet for the lack of fish. 1.9 million caught but only 443,000 counted in the river. You need to stop your pointless whining about dipnetting. The number of fish we harvest is insignificant (especially this year).

  16. #16

    Default Answer to Activwildman - how much do you want to work for?

    I want to make as much as I can on my money I have invested in this business. How much do you want to make at your job.
    I've put 85K into the permit and 160K into the boat, 3k per net, local taxes on this equipment and land to store equipment.
    Am I to not want a return for my business.
    Since the State broke my contract - I would be galde to sell it back to the law breaker for the price paid. But that is not going to happen.
    Dipnetting started one year when there was more fish going up the river than it could handle.
    The years before that the state managed (as they were mandated by Federal Law) for max yeild. The return was 8 fish for every 1 that went up.
    For years now, the state was gone against max yeild and is managed by sport guides so the rest of us would not have enough and fight over every sockeye.
    The guides do not care about reds, but if they distroy the red run commerical nets get pulled from water - then more Kings come in and the tourist buy the guides big bucks to catch a King.
    Politics by the guides have changed the management of the reds so that we now get a 1 fish return for every 1 fish that goes up the river.
    Your answer and mine is to get the state to return to management for max yeild.
    Max yeild means there is only so many fish any river can handle. Like cows on a pasture - too many cows and they starve.
    Our sockeye smolt are 1/3 the size they were in past.
    If a fish is going to sea at only a 1/3 the size he should be - what are the odds of him living to return.
    And what size fish will he reproduce.
    We commerical guys thought it was great for dipnetters when there was too many fish going up the river.
    But now what is happening. F&G says there is not enough fish returning and commerical is the only one stopped fishing.
    Hope the best for all - last mass of fish should hit river later this year.
    Go ahead - kill the last one.
    If the return is too low, we commerical guys would like to see the last salmon live and maybe my grandkids will have a chance to fish.

  17. #17
    Member TYNMON's Avatar
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    Default Complete contradiction........ Lets try some factual numbers and leave out emotions

    Quote Originally Posted by winnie View Post
    I want to make as much as I can on my money I have invested in this business. How much do you want to make at your job.
    I've put 85K into the permit and 160K into the boat, 3k per net, local taxes on this equipment and land to store equipment.
    Am I to not want a return for my business.
    Since the State broke my contract - I would be galde to sell it back to the law breaker for the price paid. But that is not going to happen.
    Dipnetting started one year when there was more fish going up the river than it could handle.
    The years before that the state managed (as they were mandated by Federal Law) for max yeild. The return was 8 fish for every 1 that went up.
    For years now, the state was gone against max yeild and is managed by sport guides so the rest of us would not have enough and fight over every sockeye.
    The guides do not care about reds, but if they distroy the red run commerical nets get pulled from water - then more Kings come in and the tourist buy the guides big bucks to catch a King.
    Politics by the guides have changed the management of the reds so that we now get a 1 fish return for every 1 fish that goes up the river.
    Your answer and mine is to get the state to return to management for max yeild.
    Max yeild means there is only so many fish any river can handle. Like cows on a pasture - too many cows and they starve.
    Our sockeye smolt are 1/3 the size they were in past.
    If a fish is going to sea at only a 1/3 the size he should be - what are the odds of him living to return.
    And what size fish will he reproduce.
    We commerical guys thought it was great for dipnetters when there was too many fish going up the river.
    But now what is happening. F&G says there is not enough fish returning and commerical is the only one stopped fishing.
    Hope the best for all - last mass of fish should hit river later this year.
    Go ahead - kill the last one.
    If the return is too low, we commerical guys would like to see the last salmon live and maybe my grandkids will have a chance to fish.
    Wait a minute.... You are stating that the smolts are going out at 1/3 of normal size..... This is likely do to overproduction, so wouldn't you want limited escapements by your reasoning?? FYI, size and numbers are only two of many other factors that influence ocean survivals.. Sockeye lifehistories are very very complex and the small size could have been due to very warm winters allowing these fry to attain smolt size at age one vrs the normal age two, this is exactly what led to the crash of the Kvickak sockeye population...

    You comparisons of catchin the last fish are desperate at best.... Commercial harvest was 1.9 Million, leaving 450,000 past sonar to date, even if inriver harvest is 20% this year (likely much smaller) that is less then 100,000 fish....

    So kind sir if inriver conservation is what you are looking for, the conservation burden should have been shared equally and the commercial harvest should have been closer to 1.5 million vrs 1.9 million.

  18. #18
    Member Arcticwildman's Avatar
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    Default

    Sorry Winnie but that dog doesn't hunt.

    You and your commercial friends are not the only ones entitled to the fish. Like I posted earlier, the numbers speak loud and clear: 1.9 Million caught by you and your mates, 443,000 in the river and you have the audacity to complain???

    You are getting 80% of the resource for cripes sake. How much more do you want? 90% 95%?? You are the poster child for the greedy commercial fisherman we see at the BOF spring meetings calling for higher commercial harvest and less allocation for the sport fisheries.

    Also, if the smolt are 1/3 the size they used to be, maybe the claim made by others that their isn't enough food in the river (via fish carcasses) has merit. If anything I think we need to reduce your take and allow a higher escapement so their are sufficient nutrients in the river.

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    Default Wow, You Really Don't Listen...

    I laughed out loud, literally... I warned you that if you continued your tripe and emotional vomiting that you'd get statistics, TRUTH and all sorts of facts that you won't like thrown in your face. Maybe you should change your handle to "Whiney".

    THERE ARE NO FISH FOR ALL OF US... AND ITS NOT DIPNETTERS FAULT.
    "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit is better than he who takes a city." ~ Proverbs 16:32

  20. #20

    Default

    Well guys the average boat has maybe grossed around $15k so far.
    Too many Dead salmon bodies does not lead to food for smolt.
    There are many problems with the river system, yet nothing is being done about it.
    I know there will always be different positions - that is what life is all about.
    Back when I sport fished, I had to catch my table food with rod and reel - not a trawl net. That was not legal.
    Have a good life.

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