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Thread: So I Am Going To Build A .425 Westley-Richards..

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    Default So I Am Going To Build A .425 Westley-Richards..

    Telephoned Dan Pederson of Cut Rifle Barrels in Arizona regarding this, had sent a letter and spoke with him on one occasion previously, but we are in a go mode now. I am waiting on a very clean 1938 K98 S/42 (Oberndorf), Mauser from the Lower 48, stock is trashed and the barrel is "rough" so I'll have no qualms turning this right around to send down to Dan.

    I have a Rigby bolt peep to put on this, but Dan wants to do something "different" in terms of sights and barrel contour. I have looked through my saved photos of old English and Continental rifles for an unusual contour. I haven't found anything that jumps out at me, so I need photos or links from you guys if you see something unusual.

    I have a stock, that's no problem. Just the barrel contour.

    So help me out.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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    Member BrettAKSCI's Avatar
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    Sorry I don't have any pics, but I just wanted to say neat rifle. We need pics when it's done!!!

    Brett

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Check with Casper 45 as he know tons about the old fine rifles. You can also check doublegunshop.com

    http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

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    Thanks, I will.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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    I have had Dave Manson of Loon Lake Precision make 2 reamers for me for wildcat calibers that I called 425 something or other. On each of the drawings he added NOT the same bullet diameter as the 425 W/R.

    My 425's were made to use bullets for the 404 Jeffery, which are not .404" in diameter, they are .423" in diameter, I just thought 425 had a ring to it. Both my 425 caliber cartridges used the .423" bullets. No cartridge uses a .425" bullet and the 425 Westly Richards uses .435" bullets. I think Woodleigh is the a maker but those lathe turned North Fork bullets could be made in the diameter, if they aren't already. Also, I believe Hawk makes the .435" diameter.

    Now on to this fine old caliber. It has impressive ballistics in such a small package. The standard heavy load is 410 grains at about 2350 fps range. It is an original short fat magnum of 1909, with a grossly rebated rim. If memory serves the body diameter is about .550", (that's a guess), it's been a while since I've loaded them. The rim diameter is about .470" to fit the standard (30-06) bolt head. I guess the Westley folks couldn't machine the bolt of the Mauser rifles. The overall length is about 3.4", a little less I think, to fit the 30-06 length magazine. Feeding the round especially with a Mauser extractor, creates some problems and most of those are too big to be called issues. The old Westley Richards guns were rebuilt in the magazine to feed and they worked well until things began to wear. You should consider that before chambering a barrel for your Mauser in this caliber.

    I loaded ammo for Westley Richards in the United States (there's only one store), for this and many other calibers. I like the ballistics and the package, except for the rebated rim. Brass can be made from 416 Rigby and even the 460/378 Weatherby cases (416 rigby with a belt) if you turn the belt off. But it is available as propriety cases (W/R headstamped) but I doubt they would sell brass to you. They sell ammo. I think Pete, at Quality Cartridge, will make it for you and it may even be available now. There is a case available for these ballistics and bullet diameter but it rarely has any appeal as those folks like you who want an old English caliber, want just that, an old English caliber, not the ballistics. We can get that in several available cases. The 375 Ruger or the 375 Dakota case would be good choices.

    So, though I applaud your selection of an old classic cartridge, I cannot support the choice from a practical view. Select your gun smith carefully and find your brass before hand.

    CZ is rumored to be bringing out their Safari Classic rifle in the 425 W/R caliber. Those guns are more than two grand but likely your custom will be also. Your should look one over first, CZ may know something we don't.

    One other thing, the 425 W/R wasn't a double gun cartridge.
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  6. #6

    Default Murphy's Gun Notes

    Murphy you need to put all of your stuff together and get it printed out at Date-Line Copies or some such place. We( I am speaking collectively for the rest of the forum but I believe that they like me truly recognize your proclivities and genius) would buy the heck out of it.
    I notice that Gun Notes by Ken Waters is now 60.00 per loose material. Just do it that way.
    I am positively sure the entire forum would buy everything you have about handguns, sakos, wildcats and other things. Your stuff is priceless.

    Sincerely,
    Thomas

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    Thank you, I appreciate your opinions.

    I believe W-R wanted to get as many of their rifles into the hands of the colonists as quickly and cheaply as possible, and figured reducing machine time would cut costs, and hence the cartridge design with the rebated rim. Obviously I don't know that for certain, but it sounds good. A fellow I corresponded with in Kentucky had a VZ-24 barreled and then proceeded to work on the action to make the cartridge feed. He found that by only working on the follower he was able to get three cartridges down and make them feed perfectly: fast, slow, even upside down. He seated the Woodleigh bullets over a load of 70 grains of sand with fired primers so he could exactly duplicate a real cartridge.

    I have been lusting after a .425 for over 15 years, and have found the only gunmaker/smith on this continent who is willing/able to build one is Dan Pederson. He has finished a couple in the past year.

    I have 150 cases now, which should last quite awhile. Quality Cartridge is spendy, they made me some correctly headstamped 9x57mm Mauser last year, and list the .425 in their catalog. There is always Horneber and he is even more expensive. Bertram quality is spotty, but with the number of cases I already have, I won't need more.

    Bullets, well, there are an awful lot of old batteries lying around here in Bethel, and they make great bullets. Plus, I do have a lathe, so I could laboriously turn some projectiles, but it would be easier to cast some up.

    I even have a nice stock, a Husky Model 146 which, with a little barrel channel work, it should drop right in. But want to include a photo of a drop dead serious looking rifle by Harald Wolf of Belgium. This one is in .458 Lott, and needs the forearm to be whittled down for a more svelte look, but it does the trick for this kid.

    I'll post pics once I get things going.

    P.S. I found a double rifle on Gunsamerica that is chambered for .425 W-R, by W-R, for a mere $50,000.00 USD. Goes to show if you have the money....
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    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

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    I should have known you would do the research and pursue the passion. I wasn't trying to wet balnket your flames just pointing out what I knew of it to help in the decision. I guess you're already there.

    It is a grand old caliber and deserves a good English pattern bolt gun to make it right.

    I've never seen a double gun in the caliber but of course many doubles were made in non-typical calibers.

    What do you think of this one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaboku68 View Post
    Murphy you need to put all of your stuff together and get it printed out at Date-Line Copies or some such place. We( I am speaking collectively for the rest of the forum but I believe that they like me truly recognize your proclivities and genius) would buy the heck out of it.
    I notice that Gun Notes by Ken Waters is now 60.00 per loose material. Just do it that way.
    I am positively sure the entire forum would buy everything you have about handguns, sakos, wildcats and other things. Your stuff is priceless.

    Sincerely,
    Thomas
    Thanks, Thomas, for the kind words and support. I do plan to do just that and hopefully in the next 12 months we'll see something in print.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    What do you think of this one?
    If I knew where you lived....seriously, I get all heated up over an all original English express rifle. Especially one like that, which I have never seen. I know of only one other rifle with a bolt shaped like that, a .318 W-R that was owned by Craig Boddington.

    If I had $7,500 in disposable cash, I too could become the proud owner of a "real" W-R. I have seen only two of the high-grade (spring-clips and 5 rd. mag) grade rifles for sale in the last 20 years.

    So tell me...how do like this one?
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    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

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    Member BrettAKSCI's Avatar
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    Now that WR bolt action is just sexy!!! I can take a double in .425 WR, but in .458 win????? Parish the thought!!!! It's like taking a beautiful woman and naming her Bruce!!! Just doesn't quite work!

    Brett

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Wonderfull,any ideas on who did the CC

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    Nitro,

    That's quite a piece, is that a new rifle or new finish?

    The pic of mine I'm not sure is the first rifle I had. I don't own it, never did, just loaded it and had fun. I have a bunch of pics with not to discriptive titles, but it is the same config. I've only had two guns in my hands, both originals. I have some more pics of W/R bolt guns in different caliber, mostly 318. I prefer the Jefferized bolt guns but they are all very distintive. I also had, for a while, an original Jeff Mauser in 500 made in the 1920's. I would have paid just to hold that one.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    That CC .425 belongs to an engineer in Germany. I had corresponded with him a few years ago, he provided close-up photos of the action and follower while it was being made. Pretty isn't it? He also had a 577 T-Rex he took photos of for me. No-where near as pretty.

    Hhmmmm Jeffrey rifles. I need to find some pix of those. Thanks for the tip.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

    Better living through chemistry (I'm a chemist)

    You can piddle with the puppies, or run with the wolves...

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    Default .425 Westley Richards

    A friend of mine has a .425 Westlely Richards bolt rifel in very good condition. Has this caliber got any problems whilst hunting dangerous game. Is the "hitting power"/penetration suffecient? doe it have any mechanism flaws? I am interested in buying it off him as it is in beautiful condition, I was in love when I first saw it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steyn View Post
    A friend of mine has a .425 Westlely Richards bolt rifel in very good condition. Has this caliber got any problems whilst hunting dangerous game. Is the "hitting power"/penetration suffecient? doe it have any mechanism flaws? I am interested in buying it off him as it is in beautiful condition, I was in love when I first saw it.
    Some people claim that the design of the cartridge (a rebated rim) could cause problems, but that's very hypothetical. The rebated rim would make the cartridge a very poor choice for a double rifle, but for a bolt action it's rather immaterial. I wouldn't let that stop me for one second if I liked the rifle and wanted it. As for the calibre/cartridge's performance....well it's track record in African as one of the prefered bolt action offerings in the first half of the last century along with the likes of the .404 and .375 speak for itself! No questions there. The only reason why it's not as popular/common today is due to the developement and production of the verious .375s, .416s, and .458s over the last 50 years.

    Brett

    Who's the maker? If it's Westley Richards then I think you should buy it as a Christmas present for me!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Adam Barringer View Post
    Some people claim that the design of the cartridge (a rebated rim) could cause problems, but that's very hypothetical.

    Who's the maker? If it's Westley Richards then I think you should buy it as a Christmas present for me!!!!!
    Not to argue your point Brett, but the FTF in the 425 WR is not just hypothetical, it is quite common among converted actions IME and the rebated rim offers zero positive attributes to its performance. It is not the best case design in a DGR though its ballistics have been rightly praised. I think John Taylor speaks of it as a superb lion cartridge and others have used it very successfully on all types of African game.

    However I agree completely, that if its in a Westley Richards rifle then it would in all likelihood be a great rifle (though they tend to come with long barrels) as WR would not release a rifle that will not feed reliably and their craftsmanship is absolutely top shelf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    though they tend to come with long barrels
    28" barrels what?

    Brett

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    Its is made in Westley Richards, I did not get the barrel length though. What would it be worth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steyn View Post
    Its is made in Westley Richards, I did not get the barrel length though. What would it be worth?
    Too many variables to make a real guess without seeing the rifle face to face. It would almost certainly be worth a couple of mortgage payments; possibly as much as a couple years worth of mortgage payments.

    For example:

    http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/u...t.php?id=26167

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/927877520...ED_375_H_H.htm

    http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/u...t.php?id=26128

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