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Thread: Kill, Baby, Kill

  1. #1
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    Default Kill, Baby, Kill

    Interesting read, to say the least.


    http://audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0907.html
    Last edited by DEDWUF; 07-15-2009 at 17:00. Reason: incomplete

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default you forgot the other half...

    Greetings!
    This is simply unbelievable !!!

    The July -Aug issue of Audubon Magazine features a story slamming Governor Palin, her Commissioner's office, the Board of Game, and the Dept of Fish and Game that should be a real eye opener for every hunter and sportsmen in Alaska.

    In the article, an ADF&G wildlife physiologist, Sean Farley foolishly exposes himself and a very small group of Department personnel that are currently undermining the good work that the Department has been doing regarding predator managment and moose and caribou calf survival.

    If you don't read any other game article this year, please see the link below and read this one.
    If you get the same sick feeling many of us here at SFW felt after reading it, please act on it.

    We have also listed below an email link to the Commissioner's office for you to send you thoughts.

    Under the last year of the Palin administation, we have witnessed some meaningful, productive, predator managment,with the appointment of some good people in active management positions, and the early results have been very impressive to say the least.

    However, there is still cancer that is hiding in the walls at the Department and it must be exposed, and soon !!

    What is even more worrysome than Mr Farley's negative statements about the Department's predator managment programs is his direct suggestion that the Director of Wildlife (Doug Larsen),and the Region II supervisory staff is fighting the Governor and her abundance managment agenda by protecting Mr Farley's outlandish behavior.

    Please read the article and take a stand on behalf of the Governor, the Board of Game, and the good people at ADF&G that are trying so hard to get good things done for all Alaskans.



    Sean Farley
    This man needs to explain
    himself !!
    And so does anyone above him in the Department that might be protecting his destructive agenda.
    The time to act is now.
    Please link up and tell Commissioner Denby Lloyd that you appreciate his hard work, and that Alaska simply cannot afford to have people in the Department that are working against the Governor and her beneficial abundance managment
    policy.
    We've come too far to let that happen.


    To all who hunt:

    Those wondering why it is difficult to conduct effective predator management in this state will find this article quite interesting.

    Paragraphs 7 through 9 are especially insightful.

    I wonder how much longer Alaskan hunters will put up with certain "bad apples" in their own Fish and Game Department undermining their elected officials.

    http://audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0907.html

    Please direct your comments to ADF&G Commissioner Denby Lloyd at:


    dfg.commissioner@alaska.gov

    Sincerely-
    SFWAlaska

    again you know the ORG, that is stuffing all the hype down folks throats that will ultimately profit from it all.....

    hmmmm now what were those salaries again?????





    I would ratehr hear from the Biologist that are accused of poor sceince...then the politicians seeking their next bonas.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  3. #3
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    Default

    I know the ORG- Defenders of wildlife


    And I know the 'Wounded Warrior" project is greatly appreciated by those "Wounded warriors" that are participating. Its simply a honorable project.

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    Default

    the "wounded warriors" project is one thing,
    calling for the heads of those who disagree with your policies, and attempting to orchestrate a "coup" in OUR state dept of fish and game is another....
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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    Default

    Since I received this website, in two different forms, the first form with only the audubon website, from Indiana. And the second a day later in the form Vince posted, within Alaska. I decided to post the first, that way the website could speak for itself. Without 'killing' or shifting focus to a secondary messenger.

    And I found the audubon story very interesting. And thought others might find it interesting too !

  6. #6
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    i found both interesting. and don't like either org. not one bit...

    but i am going to swing with Dave on this one.. i am not sure i agree with the pose of SFW on gathering heads of our F&G dept biologist. because they are speaking out against some things that have been stuffed down the throats... we have beat the unit 16 to death along with other areas... so it is pointless to get into those discussions.


    by placing both orgs at bay of each other... we should be able to see a portion of truth out of each... ? or begin to see the politics moving behind them....


    statements like this make me wonder....
    I wonder how much longer Alaskan hunters will put up with certain "bad apples" in their own Fish and Game Department undermining their elected officials.
    what is fish and game undermining?

    did we not all sit through the BOG meeting and did we all not come out of it.... scratching our heads and asses.... saying what the hell just happened and how was that legal?

    did we not see politically appointed people hand a large portion of tags to a select group of people? ( tier)

    did we not hear BIO after BIO report on conditions.. and have Props voted down and then brought back up after the parties had left and modified and passed?

    and what again was Seekins role at the BOG and what part of the SFW did he represent?

    i will say that my take on the DFW "INCITE" was more conservative then some of the others i have previewed and i actually agree with some of the conservation points they bring up.....

    for instance the mentality that EVERY predator must die .... it is Wrong..

    but for some reason the conservation group in this cock fight is not the one that worries me.. it is the one telling folks WHAT they want to hear...

    you know all the regular folks that don't pay attention to what is going on around them... until they can't find a moose ...

    those not involved... or listening ....

    telling them the we will make you feel good if you put us in charge....

    there seems to be a lot of that in this country this year........
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  7. #7

    Default From the Audabon article

    "There’s nothing wrong with predator control if it’s done for legitimate purposes, such as saving endangered birds from human-caused overpopulations of gulls, skunks, raccoons, and feral cats."
    This is from a biologist? Look at the last half of the sentence, humans are responsible for gull, skunk and raccoon over-populations? I can see the cat thing, but the rest destroys all credibility of the author as a scientist as he claims. I have to look at the whole article with a lot of scepticism.
    Mike
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    Default

    gulls often flourish beyond natural (no humans) carrying capacity in coastal areas where garbage and fish waste is abundant, and the same could be said of skunks and coons in urban and semi-urban areas where there is abundant food and no trapping or hunting.
    if you can look past the authors biases, i still think that the article accurately describes a grievous blow to the credibility and effectiveness of Alaska's dept of fish and game, given credence by the simplistic views of a wasilla hockey-mom who by exemplifying the "peter principle" (soon to be known as the "palin principle ) rose to lead our state... nowhere... it was hard... she quit...and left a mess of ADG&G we will be paying for for a long while.
    i would say she sold us out, but as far as i can tell the dept was given away by appointing corey rossi to a top spot in ADF&G
    SFW's rhetoric and most visible programs seem beyond reproach (hey, who could be against the "wounded warriors program?) but while they are wrapping themselves in the flag they are taking the pea off the table, keeping the shells moving, and using the rube's money to pad their pockets and ultimately benefit friends, cronies and out-of-state interests.
    just 'cause don "pay me" peay moved to fairbanks doesn't make him an alaskan, or imply he has the state's residents OR resources best interests in mind.
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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    Default It

    was me that brought up the 'Wounded warrior" project.

    I didn't see it on the SFW page that was also posted.

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    Default

    Did Don change his name?? Down here in the lower 48 it was Peay day, now it's peay me??
    Well just think all you folks can go out and get a second job, So you can afford to BUY a tag to hunt in your own state... Ain't that exciting??
    You are so lucky that some fella from Utah has come up there to fix all your problems..

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    Default

    It's hard to believe anyone who hunts would side with Audobon society on anything. To the author, humans are a bad thing, and the "slaughter" of animals to further human ends is an atrocity. Is this a group we as hunters should be encouraging? Whatever your views on SFW and state predator control, don't let them be used by the enemies of your way of life to end what you love to do in the outdoors.

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    Default

    I'm comfortable knowing the Audobon Society looks down there nose just as much at Homerdave and his transporter business (which helps kill bears unnaturally) as they do at our Gov, SFW, and anyone else who practices the "unnatural" practice of hunting!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  13. #13
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    Talking yep, pretty sure i'm not "audobon" material...

    between the goat my wife shot and the cow moose that filled my freezer last year, not to mention the bear i hope to take this fall i think i wouldn't be welcome in the board room
    went along on a sea otter hunt once too.... definitely an audobon no-no...
    but... just because ted williams and i don't likely see eye-to-eye on lots of topics doesn't mean he can't make salient points in a well researched article....
    even my friend martentrapper is right lots of the time


    hey!!! i'm not your only friend anymore.... WAAAH!
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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  14. #14
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    Default why the caution

    This is exactly what I mean- Audobon Society using an article with seeds of truth in it to divide Alaska's hunters and set them at each other's throats. I want to offer a different slant on Corey RossiI worked for Corey Rossi for several years, as part of his first crew in the state, working as USDA Animal Damage Control. This is the government trapping agency. It is now known as Wildlife Services.

    I worked on several projects around the state: bird abatement at the Anchorage Airport, hazing birds off of Eagle River flats on Ft. Rich (superfund site due to white phosphorous contamination), trapping fox off 2 islands in the Aleutians, pigeon control, and hazing kitiwakes from the runway on St. George Island. It is totally floors me to hear the comments that the total anti kill crowd will make, and worse, comments from the ignorant public who have listened to the anti kill agenda.

    I'll just talk to two of them. First happened on Gareloi Island. It is an active volcano that had a population of 72 Arctic Foxes before we went to work on them. It has several million auklets nesting on it, one of the major colonies in the Aleutians. It also has peregrine falcons, eagles, gulls, and "LDB's" galore (little drab birds). Each fox can kill several hundred auklets in a year, through catching them as chicks and adults, and eating their eggs. As a ground nester, nesting in little cracks, crevices, and runways in the volcanic basalt, they are very easy to catch. When pursued, often they will turn their head into the dirt beside their trail and pump their feet wildly trying to burrow into the solid dirt. Not the brightest bulb in the string!

    Anyway, as we were offloading our camp that spring, I heard a comment that totally exemplified the mindset of the "killing is bad" crowd. Beach landings were a dangerous event. We used 16' Avons and Zodiaks with a 25 or 30 horse short shaft engine to offload the entire camp: weatherports, food, personal gear. This particular day wasn't a bad surf day, but the beach was comprised of round "cobble", which is surf smoothed rock from fist sized to bowling ball size. Its very unstable, as its life is spent rolling around in the surf coming onto the beach. As we carried heavy loads up this perilous ground, we could hear auklets in the rocks underfoot. There was a colony of around 10,000 birds nesting right in the cobble of the beach that we were ferrying our camp over.

    One of the birders who was helping us unload heard that and said, "Watch where you step! You don't want to crush any of the auklets!" Wow. It just so happened that I already was watching my step, but not out of fear of a couple auklets. I figured the first fox I killed would more than make up for any accidental auklet deaths. No, I was watching my step out of concern for ME, and the other humans on the beach. I did not want to injure myself, and I didn't want to be the focus of a remote rescue because of a wrenched, dislocated or broken appendage. I was not going to lose focus on my own personal safety or the safety of the crew I was with, to prevent rolling a rock on top of a bird.

    I got along well with the birders I worked with, the biologists, the Audobon Society members. I didn't work with any rabid activists, though. I was a necessary evil- a "fox trapper." (conjure up images of unwashed, fox lure matted beard, uneducated primitive bushman) They tolerated what we did because we were undoing a mistake made by humans in changing the "natural" order of things. We were restoring nature to a more native state, and protecting birds in the process.

    Several years later, I was working on Ft Rich, and the AWACS plane went down. It was with a sense of foreboding that we approached the gate that morning, with the heavy plume of black smoke billowing above the tree line. It wasn't until we got to the gate that we found out what happened. I spent the rest of the day with the MP's trying to find a back route into the crash site, and helping with traffic control. 24 men and women lost their lives that day because the goose population in Anchorage and on Elmendorf in particular had been left to grow unchecked. Families lost their sons and daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives. Children were orphaned. They died within sight of their homes- not even on foreign soil. After that happened, Animal Damage Control was involved in the process of trying to figure out what to do about the Anchorage Bowl goose population. Corey Rossi sat in a lot of meetings, fielded many phone calls, both pro and con. You would be appalled at some of the opposition raised to goose control at those meetings! The goal was never eradication of the Canada Goose- just a check of its numbers, and a more natural number, at or below natural carrying capacity for the area. As a result of that plane crash, you now see an Anchorage Bowl goose population far lower than it was then. (I think its 1,000-1500 birds now, where it was around 5,000 at the time of the crash)

    Here's what he had to deal with, though. With the headlines still carrying the names and images of the 24 human lives that were so suddenly ended, there were many in Anchorage who still adamantly opposed ANY control measures for geese. Many people who wanted the geese captured and transported out of Anchorage, maybe, but certainly not killed! (for any who did not realize this, geese have wings and use them to fly around 3,000 miles one way each spring and fall... but I guess they wouldn't use those wings to return to Anchorage after being transported out of town) Imagine that- the life of a Canada Goose was more important to these people than the life of a military person who worked every day to protect their safety and way of life. Killing a very tasty meat bird, donating that meat to the homeless shelters, was a repugnant thought to them. The other means of goose control were just as repulsive to many people, though it didn't even involve killing birds.

    Once ADC started at the airport, we did several things. One was hazing birds- moving them off the airport. If they didn't move, we would shoot the big gander in the flock, and the rest would usually leave. Dead birds were field dressed immediately and kept cool for the homeless shelters to pick up. We addled eggs in the nests. Once hatched, fledgelings were captured and transported to the Palmer hay flats- hopefully to imprint there and return to that spot rather than Anchorage. Funny enough, many people oppose egg addling- the process of shaking or letting air into an egg to prevent it from hatching. These same people many times were in favor of allowing abortion, which is killing a partly developed human before it leaves momma's womb, yet they opposed the killing of a partly developed bird inside its shell. Weird, huh? We also worked with native groups to gather eggs in the spring- a taste of traditional village life in the middle of the Urban Jungle.

    I'm not trying to hijack this thread. Just adding a little insight into the "brains" of people who are adamantly opposed to killing any living thing, other than humans. (They have no problem with that- there are too many of us on the planet, and we are a blight on Gaya's skin.) Corey's spent his career having to deal with that mindset, even as he sees the havoc that unchecked, artificially enhanced and introduced wildlife populations create.

    The Audobon article spoke glowingly of several Fish and Game biologists, and disparagingly of others and our state BOG and governor. I take that with a huge grain of salt. Look at Anchorage's biologist and self acclaimed bear expert, for instance. Why are bears a problem in Anchorage? Because people aren't trained well enough. They don't store their garbage well enough, they have "encroached" on Mr. Bear's territory, oh my gosh, they even cook food in their homes! Its no wonder bears are entering homes- people shouldn't be leaving tantalizing odors around their homes! People need better management, not the bears. We can't allow black bear hunting or moose hunting on the hillside to prevent vehicle accidents and unsafe bear encounters, because it might offend some people. Even though its the peoples' resource and a great protein source. Even though by hunting bear, we condition them to avoid human contact. Yes, folks, ADF&G has Bios of all stripes within its ranks. Audobon found one who shared its views and used his comments to sow dissension and discontent in our state, and cast aspersions toward our governor and her game policies.

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    Wilphish4food,
    well I might not fall into that certain 'category' some of people, but I did enjoy your write-up, it was interesting, and it provided some 'insight' for me.

    I can remember when Anchorage city managers (or some similar status) , asked Mr Farley why doesn't the Adf&g shoot some of the local bears in the Anchorage area. He told them it would'nt help, because other bears would just move in and take their place. Something like that.
    I had to laugh about that one, as I could 'visualize' a line of bears waiting for their chance to get into the Anchorage bowl.

  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DEDWUF View Post
    Wilphish4food,
    well I might not fall into that certain 'category' some of people, but I did enjoy your write-up, it was interesting, and it provided some 'insight' for me.

    I can remember when Anchorage city managers (or some similar status) , asked Mr Farley why doesn't the Adf&g shoot some of the local bears in the Anchorage area. He told them it would'nt help, because other bears would just move in and take their place. Something like that.
    I had to laugh about that one, as I could 'visualize' a line of bears waiting for their chance to get into the Anchorage bowl.
    It is interesting the idea that you can't "teach" a dead bear. The thing is there are a lot of bears that are afraid of people and stay away. Sure you probably can't teach a bear to stay away by killing it but if you kill all of the ones that are not afraid of people well by default the ones left sure will be!

  17. #17
    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    Default bear behavior

    Momma grizzlies spend nearly 3 years with their cubs, teaching them the intricacies of life. Blackies spend a year or more with their cubs. In this time they can either teach them to avoid human contact or teach them that it is to their benefit to approach humans and human habitation for an easy meal. I prefer to teach bears that I'm to be avoided, not an easy food source.

  18. #18
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    Default Willphish - nice rambling hijack <grin>

    Willphish, you have me wondering if you're ************. Another friend of Rossi and fellow fox-trapper for APHIS at one time.

    Quote Originally Posted by willphish4food
    These same people many times were in favor of allowing abortion, which is killing a partly developed human before it leaves momma's womb, yet they opposed the killing of a partly developed bird inside its shell. Weird, huh?
    Not as weird imo as you completely hijacking the thread and putting this crazy spin on things. Gotta give ya credit though, well done! Whenever someone can weave in the military who protect us all, rabid hypocritical killing-is-bad abortion proponents, and tie it all together in an attempt to prove that anyone who opposes Rossi's and SFW-AK's extreme pred-control agenda is pro-abortion and believes humans are less important than animals...they should win the "Spinmeister of the Week" award <grin>.
    Last edited by LuJon; 07-23-2009 at 12:11. Reason: Please refrain from guessing at names publically. We try and respect all members privacy.

  19. #19

    Default Thanks Willphish

    for shedding more light on the source of the article under discussion!
    We could probably cure the recession if the money these large non-profits raise by inflating fears of impending disaster remained with the citizens buying things, instead of supporting a few paid positions and lining lawyers pockets.
    Mike
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  20. #20
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    Default Whoaa,

    Bushrat, do you actually believe what you said???

    I think YOUR statement about "weird" is rather disturbing...........

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