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Thread: starting loads

  1. #1

    Question starting loads

    I read somewhere (may have been here) that to find your starting load, just fill the case to the neck/shoulder juncture with the desired powder and then weigh it and then back off a couple grains and start there. I did this with several cartridges that I have already worked up loads for and it is quite accurate. Does anyone have experience with this method?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Sounds deadly to me! That could be 3 or 4 times the max with some powders. With black powder you could do that as long as the bullet rests on the charge but I would not attempt it with smokeless powders.
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    Scary, scary, scary. Min load is not just about weight or volume but also about burn speed and bullet weight.

    There are some extremely slow powders which you could fill the case and push the heaviest bullet into it and you would be safe. However, you would not get near max posible velocity with these powders even though you can not get more in the case. However, try the same thing with a fast powder and you do not have a gun you have a bomb!

    Reloading manuals are written for a reason! If that is not enough there is lots of data on line from Hodgdon, and other powder manufactures. Who ever gave you this method should be written off as a complete idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    I read somewhere (may have been here) that to find your starting load, just fill the case to the neck/shoulder juncture with the desired powder and then weigh it and then back off a couple grains and start there. I did this with several cartridges that I have already worked up loads for and it is quite accurate. Does anyone have experience with this method?
    Well, Yeah, Uhh, It worked for ONE SHOT.

    C'mon Maydog. I don't doubt there are people who would do that, but I do doubt that you are one of them.

    Smitty of the North
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    Exclamation Say it's not so.....

    Maydog...your guardian angel has been working over-time for you, sir!

    Count your lucky stars, thank the man upstairs, or do whatever you do when you realize that you have been lucky because you may have dodged a bullet or two on this one for sure. Then, after reflecting upon your luck, please stop doing what you've been doing because I'd miss your presence around here...you're an important member of this forum.

    There are so many new powders on the market, and the burn charateristics can vary so much from one powder to the next, so the starting charges will greatly vary. I'll bet that what you were doing was considered OK at some point in history, but not now. Consult your manuals, or ask openly about starting loads. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has a stack of manuals on the bench.

    Doc

    P.S. Were you just joking to see if we were still out here?

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    Red face Ooops....

    Sorry Maydog!

    I didn't read your initial post well enough. I now see that you tried this method with loads that you previously had worked-up (conventionally), and the method of filling to the shoulder and backing down had worked for those loads. You weren't saying that you use this method to determine starting loads.

    My apologies sir!

    Doc

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    So long as the charge was less than what you had already worked up to there would be no danger. This method may work for some calibers and powder types, I don't know as I've never tried it. Some powders, especially slow stick type, work best with compressed charges. I have yet to see a method that works for every thing except try it and see what it does.

  8. #8

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    Wow! That idea worked better than Exlax for me. Thanks! I needed that. My lower GI is clean now, though my heart may never recover.

    I sure hope you didn't read that here, and I'd be darned suspicious of wherever you got it.

  9. #9

    Arrow apologie accepted

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Sorry Maydog!

    I didn't read your initial post well enough. I now see that you tried this method with loads that you previously had worked-up (conventionally), and the method of filling to the shoulder and backing down had worked for those loads. You weren't saying that you use this method to determine starting loads.

    My apologies sir!

    Doc
    NO, NO, NO AND HECK NO!!!!!!!!! Thanks for giving me some credit. I didn't use or prescribe this method and won't, but just curious if there was any validity to it, and with my checking it out against already known values, I found it to be very close in those PARTICULAR instances, that's all. I was just wondering if any of you folks had heard of this method? It was a first for me...so I thought about running it past some of you guys cause I know there is some very intelligent and savvy gunners on here. Plus, yes, I wondered how many were asleep and could sneak past them. You're welcome if there was any benefits derived (intended or not) from this thread and apologize for any messes to be cleaned up...ay Brown Bear? And I do appreciate all of your concerns...I didn't think anyone cared, LOL. Thanks.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    What you're talking about may have it's roots in the widely held belief that the most accurate loads are case filling loads. Basically the idea is that you choose a powder for the caliber you're loading for that can provide a safe load, but at the same time fills the case almost completely.

    I'm not going to argue that this belief is wrong, but I think some people take it too far and won't even consider a load unless it comes close to filling the case.

    However, as stated the method you describe completely overlooks the differing burn rates of the various powders.

    Mike

  11. #11

    Talking will see

    I'm ready to start working up loads (if my dies ever get here) for my .348 AI and I'll compare AFTER I obtain the results I'm looking for with the normal procedure. I weighed the powder (H-4350) at the neck juncture and it weighs 75grs so I'll have an idea as to any validity in this PATICULAR instance. Not that any of this means anything outside of just being interesting...and being bored from waiting on those darn dies.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Let us know how it worked out Mdog...all appropriate qualifiers duly noted of course!

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeT View Post
    What you're talking about may have it's roots in the widely held belief that the most accurate loads are case filling loads. Basically the idea is that you choose a powder for the caliber you're loading for that can provide a safe load, but at the same time fills the case almost completely.

    I'm not going to argue that this belief is wrong, but I think some people take it too far and won't even consider a load unless it comes close to filling the case.

    However, as stated the method you describe completely overlooks the differing burn rates of the various powders.

    Mike
    You're probably right about that. I have kind of a bone headed notion that cases need to be full and mostly that makes a better load, but not always. It does match capacity to burn rate and generally is sound thinking. I also like to seat a bullet right on the powder, getting my desired COAL/seatibng depth. This has an added benefit of helping to keep the bullet in place under repeated heavy recoil, that does help. I think first and foremost we need to select the correct burning rate of powder then begin to work up loads. There will be several powders to give good results, some can fill the case some cannot.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Sorry, as I reread my post it carries a tone that I hadn't intended--it sounds like I'm completely badmouthing case filling loads. My most accurate load in my Ruger M77 .375 H&H is with a case full (83 grains) of H4350 lightly compressed.

    However, in .30-06 I really like the old classic load of 48 grains of IMR 4895 with a 150 grain bullet. Then of course are my cast loads like 22 grains of IMR 4227 with the 180 grain Lyman #311332 and no filler. That isn't even remotely case filling, but it's hell on paper at 50 yards.

    Mike

  15. #15

    Talking Mike

    Hi: Just for S&G, I weighed a 375 full to the neck/shoulder juncture as accurately as I could see, and it weighed 79grs with H-4350. So if one backed off a couple grains to start, your 83grs would be right there...with that particular powder. Humm.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Along this same vein, guys, consider this. If you have a load that works perfect in say 300 RUM, you get the velocity/accuracy you want and the pressure is right. If there is enough space left in the case left to smuggle heroin, is the case too big? I say it is when you can get the same ballistics, from a smaller, with less powder, and it will be full. (different powder)
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    Hi: Just for S&G, I weighed a 375 full to the neck/shoulder juncture as accurately as I could see, and it weighed 79grs with H-4350. So if one backed off a couple grains to start, your 83grs would be right there...with that particular powder. Humm.

    You can use H4350 for the 06 case and be very close and the 4895 powder of the 30-06 mil-spec load M2 ball, we could make the case smaller and get the same (M2) ballistics. We did this because you could get those ballistic from a smaller case. The 308 fills with the 30-06 powder charge of the 30-06 M2 ball round. Then we screwed the pooch by using ball powder.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  18. #18

    Talking Murphy!

    I'm sure you've experimented with lots of smaller cases that were ballistically equal or superior to it's larger brothers. This becomes an efficiency scenario? They are less overbore...are there any other factors in play? Less can be more in some circumstances.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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