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Thread: case types????

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default case types????

    Okay first question... the little 7.99 complete reloading manual for the .300 win mag...

    is it accurate?


    second ... does case TYPE make a large difference...


    my Nosler book for the load i have is. imr7828

    nosler...book 6... Nosler brass

    .73 gn min load is 101%
    75 gn 104%
    77gn max load 106%


    vrs the lil every thing book winchester brass...

    .73 gn=95%
    75gn=97%
    77gn=100%


    that is a Rather large difference in % of capacity for two pieces of brass chambered to the same bore...

    what are the concerns associated with using one brass over another and the recipe out of the book
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  2. #2

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    Always sort your brass by brand. And if you use different cases than were used to develop published loads, start low and move up the scale to find your own max.

    Internal dimensions vary quite a bit from brand to brand, and sometimes even from lot to lot within the same brand. Weigh them and you'll see the difference. If external dimensions remain the same, changes in weight have to result in changes in internal capacity.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Bear View Post
    Always sort your brass by brand. And if you use different cases than were used to develop published loads, start low and move up the scale to find your own max.

    Internal dimensions vary quite a bit from brand to brand, and sometimes even from lot to lot within the same brand. Weigh them and you'll see the difference. If external dimensions remain the same the changes in weight have to result in changes in internal capacity.

    Thanks Brown bear... that explains a lot... i is the wall thickness making the difference.

    so in this case the winchester has a thicker wall then the Nosler...

    so that just adds to the question...

    as a HUNTER.. i am not into.. faster furthest... etc. just longevity..

    given the choice to pick and choose.. is there one brand that will out last? seems to me the Winchester would take more reloads then the Nosler brass... if my assertion is correct...

    but, then there is the PRICE difference... the Nosler is $$$$ above the rest just the name or is it better quality?
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Thanks Brown bear... that explains a lot... i is the wall thickness making the difference.

    so in this case the winchester has a thicker wall then the Nosler...

    so that just adds to the question...

    as a HUNTER.. i am not into.. faster furthest... etc. just longevity..

    given the choice to pick and choose.. is there one brand that will out last? seems to me the Winchester would take more reloads then the Nosler brass... if my assertion is correct...

    but, then there is the PRICE difference... the Nosler is $$$$ above the rest just the name or is it better quality?
    Unless something has changed in recent manufacture, Winchester brass has always given me the longest life. Case care, no over-max loads, and proper die adjustment are required to really extend case life, but it's amazing just how many firings I get from a batch of cases. And using WW brass only seems to extend that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Thanks Brown bear... that explains a lot... i is the wall thickness making the difference.

    so in this case the winchester has a thicker wall then the Nosler...

    so that just adds to the question...

    as a HUNTER.. i am not into.. faster furthest... etc. just longevity..

    given the choice to pick and choose.. is there one brand that will out last? seems to me the Winchester would take more reloads then the Nosler brass... if my assertion is correct...

    but, then there is the PRICE difference... the Nosler is $$$$ above the rest just the name or is it better quality?
    Increased cost results from more than the amount of materials that are used. Nosler brass, for example, claims a more uniform case weight, a deburred flash hole and higher quality metallurgy. All of these things add to the cost of production. Personally I've not used their brass, at about the same cost I can use Lapua, which is my preference. There is no doubt that brand names alone can add to the cost, but if Nosler is as selective as they advertise with their brass then their price is not out of line. However, if you stick with brass from the same lot number I think you will be well satisfied with any major manufacturer.

    I've used a lot of Remington, Federal and Winchester brass and I can not discern any more difference in longevity or quality among different manufacturers than I can between individual lots of the same make. There are some cosmetic differences, for example Remington generally leaves a pinkish hue on the case necks after annealing that Federal and Winchester polish away. Also, if you compare cases from different manufacturers you'll probably find internal capacity differences. But you'll find these internal differences in the same make of brass sometimes and often significant differences between differing lot numbers from the same manufacturer. Even with these differences I'm reluctant to single out a make that is always more durable or is "better". For example if you check small companies that load ammo, but do not make their own cases (i.e. Garret, Cor-Bon, Superior Ammo, etc.) they will use a variety of makes depending upon caliber and need.

    I am not personally a fan of nickel plated cases, but they are very slick and work well in lever actions, pumps and autos that sometimes show chambering difficulties.

    If you want to get the most out of your cases, then you should research and look into annealing the case necks. If you do not push case pressure to the maximum you should find each of the manufacturers' brass very serviceable. With proper cleaning and maintenance 300 WM cases should get 6-10 firings and possibly more, depending on the load you choose. One thing about belted cases, if you full length resize be mindful you are not moving the shoulder during sizing. Because the 300 WM headspaces off the belt, sometimes chambers can be a little sloppy in the shoulder area and a FL sizing die may over work the brass, drastically reducing brass life and increasing the frequency of your case trimming.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    okay ... so the real difference i am looing at. if i understand it all correctly.


    at 106% vrs 100% on the max loads. ( for compairison) i have a higher pressure in the first then the second? and as long as they both show no signs of presure damage, i am simply loosing FPS in the second round? but that i am more likely to find pressure sings in the compressed loads?

    this is keeping in mind the same #gn same bullet and primers in differing brass.


    so how/where do i find the capicity and various charges for the differing brass? to accompany the bullet & powder types? is it out there?

    i notice most manuels each have there own bullets. and one type of brass and primer. or it is start low and work up each type you fnd?

    thanks for your help guys.




    on a seprate note...


    the 270 kids rounds... we have 2 selections to shoot today.

    51 gn of H4381
    and 51gn of Rl 19

    with the 150 gn nosler Bal. tip.
    and LR primers. just to see the felt recoil in powder difference. these are the minimum loads will let you know later what she likes...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    okay ... so the real difference i am looing at. if i understand it all correctly.


    at 106% vrs 100% on the max loads. ( for compairison) i have a higher pressure in the first then the second? and as long as they both show no signs of presure damage, i am simply loosing FPS in the second round? but that i am more likely to find pressure sings in the compressed loads?

    this is keeping in mind the same #gn same bullet and primers in differing brass.


    so how/where do i find the capicity and various charges for the differing brass? to accompany the bullet & powder types? is it out there?

    i notice most manuels each have there own bullets. and one type of brass and primer. or it is start low and work up each type you fnd?

    thanks for your help guys.
    There is no list of internal capacities for cases and if there was it would need updating with each new lot of brass. There are a couple of different methods I use to compare internal case volume between makes of brass. You can simply weigh the empty cases. Heavier cases have less internal capacity. If you want a more useful comparison you can weigh the empty cases then fill them with water and subtract the difference to find the water capacity. Water capacity is not used to determine the powder charge, but it gives an excellent comparison of the internal capacities of various makes of cases.

    It's hard to say without some tests how much velocity you are losing in the larger capacity case. It could be none, some, or a lot. You'll need to chronograph the loads and see for yourself. As far as pressure in each case, I suspect you are right about the smaller capacity 300 WM case producing more pressure, but with a powder like IMR 7828 it is difficult to overload the case, so I suspect you are safe with both cases. However, if you were to change powders, to say IMR 4350 or XMR 3100 you should be very cautious of which cases you use in developing loads. IT IS ALWAYS NECESSARY TO REDUCE LOADS AND WORK UP TO MAXIMUM WHEN CHANGING ANY LOAD COMPONENT. THIS IS ALSO TRUE WHEN USING THE SAME COMPONENTS BUT USING NEW LOT NUMBERS. Maximum loads should be approached and used with caution.

    Remember that the books you are using are normally called "Loading Guides"; they are not holy writ. There are many factors that must be considered and internal case capacity is only one of them. If you are changing any component in the suggested data these resources provide you should be cautious. Start low and work up safely.

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    First, loading data is only accurate in the gun it was tested in with the particular components that were used. Even temperature can make a big difference with some load combos.

    Second, case capacity can make a large difference but may not. There are too many variables to give a for sure yes or no. So, start at the starting loads and work up. It's the right way and the safest.

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    Vince,

    I'm not sure what you want to do here but here's something that might help. I ditto what the others are saying and add these points.

    Case capacity can be determined by taking fired (in your rifle) and trimmed to same length, cases and priming them (old primers will work) Weigh ten cases and numbered 1 through 10 ( I keep them in order in a loading block). Write down the empty weight of each, then fill each with water, to the top, and weigh again. Subtract empty weight from full weight and this will give you water capacity. Then simply sort cases together by water capacity and load.

    Remington brass almost always has less capacity than Winchester. It would give higher velocity and pressure with the same charge/powder/bullet. Powders in the mid burn range 4064, 4895, RL-15 will have calculated less recoil than 4831, RL-22, etc. for several reasons. The recoil calculation includes charge weight and gas exit velocity as directly proportional and both will be less with mid burn rate powders. Also you can load those powders down to lower pressures levels safely. Reduced recoil loads should be made with these powders.

    Generally weighing empty unprimed brass will give a good idea of internal capacity. But in any case never mix brands or even lots of brass within the same loading block. The % of capacity notes in some manuals are just to help you find a powder that; Fills the case safely. Tells you it may be a compressed load. Just information, not necessarilly useful. Also no two brass cases are exactly the same but the differences are so small as to not matter. There will always be some variation in case capacity, powder charge and bullet weight. These give us variations in exit velocity of any load. We accept these variations, but try to load to minimize them. That is the plight of the handloader.
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    After reading this series of posts I decided to run a test batch for grins.

    I developed a load for a friends Remington 700 BDL in .308Win a few months ago using his Federal Brass. His rifle shot best with a slightly compressed load with the following recipe:

    Varget @ 44.4gr
    CCI 200
    Barnes 168gr TSX
    COL 2.805
    Ogive .138 in his rifle


    I sorted five each of Federal, Hornady Match and Winchester brass. Ten of each would be a better sample but I did not have thirty bullets in hand. I sized, prepped and primed each case using the same techniques. The prepped brass weighed as follows:

    Federal - 183.7gr
    Hornady - 159.4gr
    Winchester - 162.5gr

    I did not use the water method that Murphy mentioned for this sample. The Federal brass wall thickness was .015 where the Hornady and Winchester were .010 and .011 respectively. I feel that it is important to note that the Federal loads were slightly compressed and the Hornady and Winchester loads were not compressed with the same charge.

    Five shots each were shot through my Chrony with the following results:

    Federal - 2663fps average, ES 34
    Hornady - 2575fps average, ES 12
    Winchester - 2647fps average, ES 19

    I developed his loads with his rifle, brass and bullets as provided. The best groups at that time were .72 with the Federal brass and these results were similar. The results with the Hornady and Winchester were both better than .5 MOA and the Winchester velocity closely matched the Federal in equal loads as measured by the Chrony.

    I was very surprised to see such a drop in velocity with the Hornady Match brass but it did result in the best group by a few thousands for what ever that's worth.

    Accuracy with Winchester Brass was a very close second in this test and is readily available for a lower cost.


    Cheers,

    This Federal load was just under max in this test rifle based on a flat primer, no other negative signs. The Hornady load could probably by tweaked up a bit. The Winchester was an easy shooter.
    Last edited by marshall; 07-14-2009 at 11:29. Reason: more data...

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