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Thread: My Ruger doesn't like me....

  1. #1
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    Default My Ruger doesn't like me....

    I shot the dang Blackhawk 45 again this weekend. I have the rear sight screwed down to the bottom. I even filed off some of the rear sight leaf at the bottom to seat it deeper in the sight, hoping to get it to hit POA.

    Still, it is five inches high at 25 yards. It originally was 20" high at fifty yards with my home made loads with the 280 grain WFNGC loaded to about 1000 fps. What should I do here. I don't want to send it to Ruger, I'm afraid they will bend the barrel or something. (Probably replace it with aone that won't shoot.)

    How much of the rear sight leaf do I need to file off the bottom to make this work. The sight radius is 6". (show your work)

    OR:
    What bullet weight and velocity will make the 4 5/8" Ruger shoot POA at 25 yards?

    Maybe I'm not pulling the trigger hard enough?!
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  2. #2

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    You make me wonder if it has more to do with your choice of loads and the "recoil cycle," if I can call it that. I never shot bullets heavier than 255 grains with my 4 5/8" 45, but as velocities dropped even that bullet really started climbing up the paper. I had to push the velocity up to near factory velocities in my "plinking" loads if I didn't want to really crank on the sight screw. Would pumping up the velocity of the 280 grain bullet (if possible) do as much as lowering the rear sight even further?

    In extremis, I'd be tempted to use black epoxy to build up the height of the front sight, then sight in by filing and shaping the epoxy. That should let you "measure" just how much more you need to take out of the rear. You can take off the epoxi later.

    And given my druthers, I'd sure be inclined to go to a higher front sight before letting Ruger or anyone else boomerang the barrel.

  3. #3

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    You could always build up a half inch of weld on the front sight? Really it has been done! Though not a full half inch! It was well done with no ugly air gaps, lines or voids after being ground down. It was then reblued with Brownells cold blue(dicropan, I think its called). It looked good but I'd hate to put that kind of heat to my barrel.

    I'd sooner think your on the right track with a different load. A big bore gun with a light bullet kind of defeats the purpose though doesn't it!

    On another topic.....Murphy I sent you both a email from this sight and a private message but don't think you got either one. I sent you a retirement present...one your gonna have to sign for to get so send me a pm with your email address or something!

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Try digging a five inch hole where you stand to shoot maybe that will drop it five inches on target. I would send it back because it should shoot what you want to use in it and if it only shoots one load good what real use is it.

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    Murphy,

    I think the for sight adjustment for POI on a 1000 inch target (25 meters) is one thousandth of an inch for one inch change in POI per inch of sight radius.

    sight radius 6"/900" (25 yards) = .0066" times 5" of change needed is about .033" of sight height change. Does that sound about right?

    You could probably file that off the bottom of the rear sight and not be noticed when you put it back on. I think Ruger only has two sizes of front sight the talles one is .440" and the shortest is .340", if I remember correctly. On the blackhawk they set in a slot on that ramp and are pinned in place but it's hard to see the pin after it is polished and blued. If you have the short sight the added .100" would be enough to get some adjustment in the rear. If you have the tall one already you may have to get one made to get back in the game. I think you could contact Hamilton and discuss it with him. I'm sure there is a way to get your load back on target. Those bullets you sent for my 44 really shoot. I can get an inch group at fifty from the 5 inch Ruger, more than good enough for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    Murphy,

    I think the for sight adjustment for POI on a 1000 inch target (25 meters) is one thousandth of an inch for one inch change in POI per inch of sight radius.

    sight radius 6"/900" (25 yards) = .0066" times 5" of change needed is about .033" of sight height change. Does that sound about right?

    You could probably file that off the bottom of the rear sight and not be noticed when you put it back on. I think Ruger only has two sizes of front sight the talles one is .440" and the shortest is .340", if I remember correctly. On the blackhawk they set in a slot on that ramp and are pinned in place but it's hard to see the pin after it is polished and blued. If you have the short sight the added .100" would be enough to get some adjustment in the rear. If you have the tall one already you may have to get one made to get back in the game. I think you could contact Hamilton and discuss it with him. I'm sure there is a way to get your load back on target. Those bullets you sent for my 44 really shoot. I can get an inch group at fifty from the 5 inch Ruger, more than good enough for me.

    WOW! Jonas you is edumacated.

    Let me see if I remember this stuff.

    Sight radius vs distance is the sight ratio. That is 900"/6" = 150

    POI error/150 = 5"/150 =.03333" That is the adjustment needed.

    OR:
    Algebraically,

    Solve for X;
    sight adjustment (X) /5" POI error = Sight Radius/ Distance 900"

    6"/900" = .0066 * 5" = .03333"

    Ok so you were close, but you didn't show your work, so I'll deduct 10 points. Not bad for an astronaut.

    I hope hope one notices, I want to put this in my book.

    I called Ruger about the sights and they are pinned in like you said and the two sizes are .445" and .340" and I have the .445" high front sight, figgers!.

    Bowen will rob me but I'll order one of his Rough Country rear sights anyway and get my money's worth in valuable info. He's dressing up my 41 mag now, can't wait.

    Thanks for stoppin' by, how was Zim? PM soon?
    Last edited by Murphy; 06-23-2009 at 08:23. Reason: Correcting my math, thanks S.B.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Try digging a five inch hole where you stand to shoot maybe that will drop it five inches on target. I would send it back because it should shoot what you want to use in it and if it only shoots one load good what real use is it.

    I like the hole idea but I can't find a shovel that fits my hands like this llittle Ruger.

    They said that they would only adjust for "standard 45 ammunition" and ship back. If it won't shoot my load it is of no use at all. It is an extremely accurate Blackhawk and it groups my loads 280 and 300 grain cast, into an inch at FIFTY yards...HooYah!! So I am gonna make this thing shoot the way I say or else. I'll replace the rear sight with one made to have more travel, up and down and try that. I think I'll get there.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default Don't file the bottom. File the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy
    How much of the rear sight leaf do I need to file off the bottom to make this work. The sight radius is 6". (show your work)
    If your rear sight leaf is like mine, filing off the bottom of the sight will do little or nothing. My rear sight's height is governed not by its bottom, but the points on the bottom of the sight. Those points on the blade/leaf engage the spring (in its little recess) and the windage adjustment screw and both those parts are fixed in height within the rear sight body. Filing off the bottom will indeed move those points up a little, but also narrow them, perhaps to the point that the sight may be able to fall out. There is also the risk that the little bulge that keeps the sight in place may bind in its track.

    My suggestion for a rear sight fix: Get an extra rear sight leaf and try filing off the top of the sight and perhaps deepen the notch a little.

    Frankly, I would be inclined to get an extra front sight, build it up taller (by whatever means) and pin it in place of the original sight.

    What bullet weight and velocity will make the 4 5/8" Ruger shoot POA at 25 yards?
    Depends on your hold and how much the gun moves in your hands under recoil. You will just have to do trial and error. If you have a chronograph, you could measure the POI for various velocities of your chosen given weight bullet and then calculate how much more velocity to dial in.

    Good luck.

    Lost Sheep.

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    Marshall Stanton from Beartooth has an interesting article on his website titled " do it yourself sixgun". It explains the same problem, his solution was to install a taller front sight (he explains how he did it). Might be worth a look, nice to help someone who has taught all of us so much on this site. I've recently dialed in a 5.5" bisley 45 colt/acp that has quickly become my favorite packin' piece. On this pistol 360 degrees of change on the rear sight screw is the difference between a 200 swc @ 800 FPS from the acp to 335 grains on the 45 colt @ 1200 FPS.

    Good luck, let us know how it turns out!

  10. #10
    Member S.B.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I shot the dang Blackhawk 45 again this weekend. I have the rear sight screwed down to the bottom. I even filed off some of the rear sight leaf at the bottom to seat it deeper in the sight, hoping to get it to hit POA.

    Still, it is five inches high at 25 yards. It originally was 20" high at fifty yards with my home made loads with the 280 grain WFNGC loaded to about 1000 fps. What should I do here. I don't want to send it to Ruger, I'm afraid they will bend the barrel or something. (Probably replace it with aone that won't shoot.)

    How much of the rear sight leaf do I need to file off the bottom to make this work. The sight radius is 6". (show your work)

    OR:
    What bullet weight and velocity will make the 4 5/8" Ruger shoot POA at 25 yards?

    Maybe I'm not pulling the trigger hard enough?!
    You don't accomplish anything by filing the bottom of the sight notch. You either need more front sight(.0333") or less rear sight(from the top of the blade, .0333")? Because of the obvious lack of knowledge of these things, I would contact Ruger and have it repaired properly?
    Distance to target divided into sight radius multiplied by error.
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
    You don't accomplish anything by filing the bottom of the sight notch. You either need more front sight(.0333") or less rear sight(from the top of the blade, .0333")? Because of the obvious lack of knowledge of these things, I would contact Ruger and have it repaired properly?
    Distance to target divided into sight radius multiplied by error.
    Steve
    Steve,

    The bottom of the sight leaf has two trianglular cuts which allow it to have a flat bottom triangle of sight leaf in the center. The two corners of this fit the screw and spring of the windage adjustment. I file the side notches with a triangular file, of the right size while I have the leaf in a smooth jawed vice, with the right amount sticking up. Then I flat file a like amount off the flat center portion. This has the effect of lowering the sight leaf by the amount filed. If you look at most of my Rugers, the sight sits down a bit more than normal factory position. This is from filing that sight leaf down.

    I don't want to file the top. I am used to the depth of the notch and use that for hold over estimations for long shots. This load will hit POA @ 200 yards with the notch depth of front sight above the top of the leaf. That is if it gets sighted in to hit POA at fifty yards with normal flat top hold. Ruger has already told me they will shoot it with normal factory ammo and if it's OK they mail it back. There requirements are quite a bit lower than my own and a six nch group at 25 yards is their standard. They feel that is the best most shooters can shoot. They cater to SASS and the cowboy shooters, so she told me. She said it isn't a hunting revolver!


    You are correct about the calculation, I turned it around above when I posted that. Oddly the numbers came out right because of the 5" and 6", and after filing off .040" of the sight BOTTOM it shot 2.5" low at fifty yards.


    It is; Sight Radius (")/distance (") * POI Error (") = adjustment (")

    6"/900" = .00555555" * 5" = .03333"

    Because of my obvious lack of knowledge of these things!?!?! Thanks for stopping by.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12

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    Hey Murphy...care to share the ingredients of those 2 loads of yours that shoot 1" @ 50 yards...? I'm a big fan of the .45 Colt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneriver View Post
    Hey Murphy...care to share the ingredients of those 2 loads of yours that shoot 1" @ 50 yards...? I'm a big fan of the .45 Colt

    No problem.

    Starline Brass.

    CCI-350 primers.

    17.0 grains of Vihta N110.

    BT280 grain WFNGC.

    I also used 16.0 grains of Norma R-123 for about the same velocity and almost as good accuracy. R-123 is defunct and not available now so I have found the N110 and it works great.

    For me to see well enough to group well at fifty yards, I use a large 8", black, round bullseye target and hold at the 6 o'clock position for better resolution. I have shooting glasses that are made like readers but the focal point is at the end of my fingers, 32", not 12" like readers.

    I rest my wrist over a bag made of canvas filled with ??? (not heavy like sand, not that that matters) but it is designed to rest a rifle forend so has a slot for my wrist bones. I use the boney lower wrist, gripping muscles will cause the gun to bounce and ruins the group if rested. I focus on the front sight and see the bullseye as fuzzy and out of focus but can keep it centered at 6 o'clock. When trying for good group I wear a leather weight lifters glove with the trigger finger cut out. This is to have a very consistant friction between the recoiling revolver and my hand. Bare hands friction varies a lot with blood, sweat and beer and for me it causes inconsistant, vertical groups. The shape of the SA grip allows it to roll the muzzle upward, the resistance to that roll must be the same for every shot. Grip tension and friction must be consistant.

    As you see I do not use H110 or W296 powder. I have never...read, never got groups like this with those powders. I think velocity variations and ignition signature are the culprit. You know another well known shooter/poster on here who will disagree with this and so be it but I have fired a few shots through big bore revolvers myself. To each his own.

    I own a nice rock. It sits in the field exactly 300 yards from my concrete shooting bench. This rock, though it is getting smaller, measures about 12" wide and about 16 to 18" high. I routinely shoot that rock with 4 to 5" barreled, ironsighted, big bore revolvers. After I'm all tweeked in at fifty yards with a gun that will shoot my 1000 fps loading, I hold up enough front sight and make a good squeeze.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    No problem.

    I own a nice rock. It sits in the field exactly 300 yards from my concrete shooting bench. This rock, though it is getting smaller, measures about 12" wide and about 16 to 18" high. I routinely shoot that rock with 4 to 5" barreled, ironsighted, big bore revolvers. After I'm all tweeked in at fifty yards with a gun that will shoot my 1000 fps loading, I hold up enough front sight and make a good squeeze.
    Very Elmer Keithish Murphy. I remember reading once that he liked to plunk at way out yonder rocks with his six shooters.

    I know of a basketball sized rock in Poweshiek County ,Iowa where a bushel basket full of various sized lead projectiles have met there demise over the last 20-30 years. Mine is a hundred yards closer than yours but then it probably needs to be. Its one of those dark green(except when it gets a fresh coat of orange paint) granite rocks that is harder than heck.

    I once instructed my old shooting buddy "Butch" that if I die before him then just write something appropriate on that rock and put it on top of me. His reply was then what the hell am I gonna shoot at. He thinks its his rock!

    A man just ain't complete lest he has his own rock to shoot at!

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    Default front sight

    greer tank advertises they have a water jet. They may be able to make a new front sight to your specs if the new back sight doesn't work.

    good luck,
    Brian

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    Never thought I would be jealous of another mans rock.... Of course part of that is the 300 yards of property between you and it and the fact that there is no one on the other side of it.
    If I owned a rock and the time came when I was past being able to use it from above, being buried under it sure seems like a fine place to rest!

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    LOOK OUT; new guy on the blog!

    Just got an email from my son in Kodiak. He’s “HuntKodiak” when he participates in the forum. He suggested that I register and share some thoughts, knowing that I have been there/done that on the handgun POI subject more than once.

    Fact is, I have had three different handguns with sights that would not adjust enough to place bullets at point of aim. They all required either a different front sight or a change of diet. Not sure any of this is going to help you, Murphy, as it sounds like changing the load isn’t an option for you, and you already have the highest factory front sight, so something custom or home-modified are about the only answers. My experience might trigger a thought for you, but more likely will be of help to others.

    In reverse chronological order, my experiences are:

    1. Several years ago it was a new Ruger Bisley SS 5 ˝” in .45 Colt. Shooting CCI 350’s, and 23 grains of H110 under an LBT 325gr LFNPB, with the rear sight bottomed out it shot nearly 5” high at 25 yards. I ordered a taller front sight from Ruger and a week later I installed it and was in business with some spare rear sight adjustment if needed.

    2. Several years earlier things were not quite so easy. The gun was a 5 ˝” Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag. I’m a heavy-bullet fan and ordered a mould from LBT for a .431/320gr LFNGC. With an alloy from recovered wheel weights it dropped good-looking bullets, but closer to 330 grains. I reckoned that would still be okay, but it turned out that they shot high with the rear sight bottomed out. Before going to a taller front sight I wanted to try something.

    Higher velocity would result in shorter barrel time and a bullet exiting the muzzle before muzzle jump reached quite so high … thus, a lower POI. Pushing the 330’s harder was not an option and I didn’t want to invest in a new mould, so I blended an alloy comprised of 50% wheel weight and 50% linotype. Linotype is less dense so the new alloy would cast lighter bullets, and that would add velocity. The new alloy dropped bullets weighing 310 grains instead of 330. Velocity with these bullets loaded at roughly the same intensity as for the 330 grain bullets were about 100 fps faster and resulted in a 4-inch lower POI at 25 yards. That got me where I wanted to be.

    3. Finally, but several years earlier yet, (reverse chronological order, remember?) the gun was a Ruger SP 101 in .38 Special. It shot 158 grain cast bullets about 3” low at 25 yards, so with fixed sights and no inclination to turn a ******* file loose on the front blade to lower it, this turned out to be my first experience with juggling bullet weight for POI adjustment. While an option would have been to lighten loads for lower velocity, resulting in more barrel time and bullets clearing the muzzle at a higher stage in muzzle jump, this was to be my wife’s carry gun in the woods. Thus staying with loads producing high-end authority for a .38 Special was a meaningful objective. Knowing that I could increase barrel time, raise POI and actually improve performance on flesh and bone with a heavier cast bullet, I ordered a mould from LBT for a .358/180gr FN. Long story/short, the diet change shifted POI to a tolerable snitch high at 25 yards.

  18. #18
    Member S.B.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Steve,

    The bottom of the sight leaf has two trianglular cuts which allow it to have a flat bottom triangle of sight leaf in the center. The two corners of this fit the screw and spring of the windage adjustment. I file the side notches with a triangular file, of the right size while I have the leaf in a smooth jawed vice, with the right amount sticking up. Then I flat file a like amount off the flat center portion. This has the effect of lowering the sight leaf by the amount filed. If you look at most of my Rugers, the sight sits down a bit more than normal factory position. This is from filing that sight leaf down.

    I.
    Sorry, I assumed by bottom of the sight blade you meant the bottom of the sighting notch. Finally got time to go over some of the things I've been too busy to do.
    Steve

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    Figures Ruger was of no help...

  20. #20

    Default I had same problem with same gun (one like it)

    I had to get a taller front sight put on. It shoots my 300 gr and 250 gr load great now.

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