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Thread: Will higher Velocity give better penatration?

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    Default Will higher Velocity give better penatration?

    What do you look for when looking for penetration? Talking .45 acp. I have found the .45 acp +p looks like it has more power than those rounds that are not +p, but I'm guessing. I have a P90 and want to know what rounds will give the best penetration/killing power.....talking animals here, no I'm not hunting them, just going to be in their area for a while.

    I have also noticed, some have different lengths that others, like 1.19", 1.210", 1.200", etc..... is that due to the length of the bullet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    What do you look for when looking for penetration? Talking .45 acp. I have found the .45 acp +p looks like it has more power than those rounds that are not +p, but I'm guessing. I have a P90 and want to know what rounds will give the best penetration/killing power.....talking animals here, no I'm not hunting them, just going to be in their area for a while.

    I have also noticed, some have different lengths that others, like 1.19", 1.210", 1.200", etc..... is that due to the length of the bullet?

    In very general basic terms, I'd say if you want max-penetration, then avoid (at all cost) hollow-point bullets, and soft-point bullets (in that order), of any design, and any manufacturer. Just get the jacketed "ball" bullets...IE: full-metal jacket. And (in the 45), the faster you drive them, the deeper they are going to penetrate...(this "rule" does not neccessarily apply to rifle bullet velocities...but it works well for the 45acp...)

    And yes, the "+P" ammo does have more power...

    And yes...the varied lengths of the different ammo is indeed due to the bullet...some bullets "stick out" further than others...

    Hope this helps.


    Marshall/Ak

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    Default 45 ACP VS 357 Magnum

    Reconsider option to get some serious 357 Magnum revolver.
    Recomending Ruger GP-100.
    Penetration is great,energy transfer good and reliability in all posible situations in the woods on the No.1 place.
    45 is great for two legd predators ( not FMJ) but in the wilderness Im relying on 357.
    I have seen uglly situations where 9mm FMJ and 45 ACP FMJ didn t penetrate wild hogs on side shot,during atemt to stop their atack on the hunter.
    With good quality 357,it never hapends.
    It penetrate every time,it did the Job every time.

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    Take a look at the 185gr offered by Double Tap pretty much on par with the 357. What are you planning on shooting and at what distances?
    At most reasonable distances 45 vs 357 is like splitting hairs. Neither would be my first choice and both require a reasonable certainty of shot placement and will shed velocity and energy pretty quick.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    What do you look for when looking for penetration? Talking .45 acp. I have found the .45 acp +p looks like it has more power than those rounds that are not +p, but I'm guessing. I have a P90 and want to know what rounds will give the best penetration/killing power.....talking animals here, no I'm not hunting them, just going to be in their area for a while.

    I have also noticed, some have different lengths that others, like 1.19", 1.210", 1.200", etc..... is that due to the length of the bullet?
    More velocity won't necessarily result in more penetration, if along with it the bullet expands more. It's more a question of bullet weight and construction relative to velocity.

    Way back "in the day" I shot a fair number of deer with 45 ACP to try and infer what I could about stopping power in defensive situations. Long and short, the much-vaunted 230 grain ball ammo was awful. It penetrated alright, but did very little damage along the way. At that time the ONLY factory load that expanded on deer was the Remington 185 grain hollowpoint. More recent bullet technology has improved the expansion business and in heavier bullets, too.

    I only shot a couple of deer with them, but a buddy gave me some hardcast 250 grain flatnose bullets he cast from a custom mould. He actually had a series of molds made, each one with a larger flat nose, trying to find just how big he could go while still getting reliable feeding. My gun took a bit of feeding ramp work to achieve reliable feeding, but I was impressed with the killing power once I managed it. They penetrated like the 230 ball while seeming to create comparable wound channels to the Remington 185 HPs (and penetrating much further).

    Sad to say the buddy with the molds has passed, and when I contacted his widow she had no clue what became of the molds. To the best of my recollection they were made by NEI, so they may have records of the design and the cherry to go with them, if this approach strikes your fancy.

  6. #6

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    What are the load spects between the 45acp and the 45win mag?

    I ask because my buddy has one of those massive autos in 45win mag and it with fmj's penitrates 12" oak trees and keep going. And when he shoots it I can see the bullets fly to the target if there is sun light directly on them.

    With out having better knowledge I would pick a 45acp with heavy fmj's over a 357 any day for even bears, but I would rather start with a 44mag and up if I was to buy a handgun for that purpose. I used a 44mag s&w hunterclassic for years for deer hunting so I do know how the 240 & 300 gr bullets work.

    I sold it because a small rifle works so much better and is just as handy to carry if your actual hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    What do you look for when looking for penetration?
    Marshall/Ak and BrownBear mention good stuff. About the only other thing I could add is that there is a direct correlation of bullet weight to penetration, all other things being equal. For example, a 230 grain FMJ in .45 auto will out-penetrate a 185 FMJ. I would agree that you should avoid FMJs for your purpose.

    If it were me I'd try to find some +P 255 grain SWC loads and see how your P90 cycles with them. Reliability will be your #1 concern. If heavy SWC bullets don't feed well in your gun, then my next suggestion would be a good 230 grain JHP. The last thing you want is a 185 grain JHP--that would give you the least penetration of any .45 auto bullet.

    Mike

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    There are several ways to answer this question but the answer for all is no. Velocity does not increase penetration.

    If we pick a caliber and a velocity, doesn't matter if it is a 30 caliber rifle or 45 caliber handgun, then start with bullets of the same type construction, as we add bullet weight, penetration increases. Bullet weight with any given caliber will increase penetration predictably when velocity is held constant. With any given caliber/weight velocity may increase or decrease penetration because of several factors. Bullet construction becomes an important element here. Of course solids penetrate deeper but there is a point where, as velocity is increased, that the solid begins to yaw at impact or even rivet the nose both of which reduce penetration.

    The best and most reliable way to increase penetration with any caliber, handgun or rifle, is to increase bullet weight even if this means reducing velocity, penetration will increase.

    Round nosed and spitzer FMJs will become unstable at impact and the higher the velocity the worse this is. The slow 45 ACP with its 230 grain round nosed design will penetrate about 8" to 10" of animal tissue before becoming unstable but if we speed up that stubby little bullet it will not go as deep. I've done this with the 45 Win mag and other 45's and found it to be true. With a bullet shaped like an oil drum, flat nosed and a good CG they tend to penetrate like a freight train until velocity reaches about 1500 fps then not so well. Adding weight or more specifically adding sectional density will increase it's stability at impact and increase penetration. The best designs for handguns are heavy for caliber (more mass) with blunt noses. This design creates the greatest wound caavity also. The best penetrating rifle bullets are heavy, high SD, blunt nosed bronze solids.

    Higher velocity, for soft point or hollow points, gives higher energy numbers but that higher energy cause more rapid expansion of these made to expand bullets. When or as a bullet expands its frontal area increases, causing more wounding but slowing the bullets travel, reducing penetration. So, in this case, higher velocity means less penetration.

    In various hunting scenarios, we may pick less penetration, more expansion, or more penetration, less expansion, depending on the gun, caliber and game hunted. We can do this by selecting the correct bullet for the application for our particular caliber/cartridge. We must live within the envelope of design for our particular cartridge. The 30-06 will penetrate best with something in the 200 plus grain of bullet weight. The 220 grain Kodiak will expand and penetrate very well at 2400 fps. A lighter bullet may penetrate as well if it expands less. But if we increase the velocity of the 220 Kodiak, soft point, expanding bullet to 2800 fps it won't penetrate nearly as much as it does at 2400 fps because it will expand more. Life and ballistics are compromises at best. Make good decisions, get good results.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by tjen View Post
    What are the load spects between the 45acp and the 45win mag?

    I ask because my buddy has one of those massive autos in 45win mag and it with fmj's penitrates 12" oak trees and keep going. And when he shoots it I can see the bullets fly to the target if there is sun light directly on them.

    With out having better knowledge I would pick a 45acp with heavy fmj's over a 357 any day for even bears, but I would rather start with a 44mag and up if I was to buy a handgun for that purpose. I used a 44mag s&w hunterclassic for years for deer hunting so I do know how the 240 & 300 gr bullets work.

    I sold it because a small rifle works so much better and is just as handy to carry if your actual hunting.
    The 45 Win mag, not so massive in a 1911 style LAR Grizzly, will give the 230 grain about 1200 fps. I doubt it will penetrate through 12" oak trees but with the 250 grain hard cast semi-wadcutter it will zip trough 8" birch trees. Also the 200 grain hard cast, WFN style, 357 bullet will out penetrate many 44 mag bullets. It has very high sectional density and is blunt nosed with weight forward. Just what we want for a deep penetrating bullet. For the 45 ACP to hit the top rung in the ladder of penetration we can use the 250 grain Sierra FPJ (flat nosed, fully jacketed except the exposed meplat) We can load this with Blue Dot powder to a velocity of 800 fps and will penetrate better than any 45 ACP bullet and it will feed when seated to ACP length. No other jacket bullet will behave so well in the 45 Auto. I have shot it in the Glock 21 and various 1911 with no feed problems. I use it in the 45 Super conversion at 950 fps and it is a butt kicking 1911.
    Last edited by Murphy; 06-15-2009 at 15:26.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  10. #10

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    was anyone familuar with the win mag I was talking about. I think it would out do the 45colt and par with a 454. I only seen it once but I think it was as long as a 44mag and would guess it might have a bullet in the 270-300gr range. The auto hand gun wieght about five pounds (Maybe more) was featured in the start of a eastwood movie and not dirty harry's 44mag.

    I thought it was a 45win mag but not 100% on the name.

    Murrphy if I missed something in your post sorry I do that sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjen View Post
    was anyone familuar with the win mag I was talking about. I think it would out do the 45colt and par with a 454. I only seen it once but I think it was as long as a 44mag and would guess it might have a bullet in the 270-300gr range. The auto hand gun wieght about five pounds (Maybe more) was featured in the start of a eastwood movie and not dirty harry's 44mag.

    I thought it was a 45win mag but not 100% on the name.

    Murrphy if I missed something in your post sorry I do that sometimes.

    I don't recall seeing one in an Eastwood movie but the Wildey pistol was featured in the Death Wish movies with Charles Bronson. The Wildey is a gas operated gun with an adjustable gas system and interchangable barrels. It is pricey but well made and the 45 Win mag is the most popular caliber. I have done a lot of testing with this gun and shot the Grizzly in both 5" and 6" barrels. They won't feed all bullet shapes but I've shot up to 300 grain bullets in all of the guns. Any auto pistol round is rimless and headspaces on the case mouth. When cast bullets are used with these an additional problems exists and that is one of lead shavings from the shoulder of the bullet building up in the chamber mouth and stopping things. I had an old 7 1/2" barreled Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt with an extra cylinder in 45 ACP. I reamed it out to accept the 45 Win mag and shot it side by side with the 45 Colt. It doesn't have the case capacity and cannot equal the 45 Colt but it is an effective round. The size of the autos would make the big revolvers a better choice. The 45 Win mag seems well suited for bullets of 250 to 270 grains and there are some good JSP's in that weight. I like the older Freedom Arms marketed 260 grain flat point JSP. They will hit 1300 from the Wildey (8"bbl) and are hardened enough with a thick jacket to make it effective.

    Check out the Wildey webb site, I believe he's still making guns, there are several calibers but ammo is a hard find. I make my own so for me the 45 or the 475 either one is fine.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12

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    That was it. I was impressed with with its fmj did for tree penitrating and it the only gun I have seen the bullets fly to the target. I must be slow in velocty for a visual trijectory. What do they weigh?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    No other jacket bullet will behave so well in the 45 Auto. I have shot it in the Glock 21 and various 1911 with no feed problems. I use it in the 45 Super conversion at 950 fps and it is a butt kicking 1911.
    You mention both the 45 win mag in an LAR grizzly, and a 45 super conversion for a 1911. Who comes out on top between all these, adding the 460 Rowland. Pardon my ignorance on these cartridges, I know of them, not about them...

    Any more info on the 45 super would be nice. How is it super?

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