Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Hard cast or Jacketed in the 45/70

  1. #1
    New member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    5

    Default Hard cast or Jacketed in the 45/70

    I bought my Marlin 1895 xlr 45/70 a couple of months ago.
    I have been loading hornady 350 grain fn bullets and have
    gotten really good accuracy with them. Now I have been loading
    405 grn trlg gas checked hard cast bullets, and the accuracy is
    just as good or better. I hunt deer,moose and black bears.
    What type of bullet would you use?
    Thanks Mike

  2. #2

    Default probably...

    I guese it would be a heavy jacketed 405 grain bullet. Should give plenty of penetration on the critters your hunting.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bctrucker View Post
    I bought my Marlin 1895 xlr 45/70 a couple of months ago.
    I have been loading hornady 350 grain fn bullets and have
    gotten really good accuracy with them. Now I have been loading
    405 grn trlg gas checked hard cast bullets, and the accuracy is
    just as good or better. I hunt deer,moose and black bears.
    What type of bullet would you use?
    Thanks Mike
    I would use the a hard cast large meplat anywhere from 370-410grs picking the most accurte one in your rifle.

  4. #4
    Member 1Cor15:19's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Dillingham, AK
    Posts
    2,356

    Default

    I have loaded the 300 grain HP bullets before but had some penetration problems on a large whitetail and gave up on them. I know one deer does not prove anything definitively but I lost confidence in them so I have left them forever. I went to 350 grain bullets and had excellent success on all animals since then, but a couple of years ago I cam across a deal on some 405's in bulk. I have shot nothing else since then and while they work great I can't detect any real difference in the two. While the 405 cast bullets may give more penetration, and I can't say they will always, the 350 FP and cast bullets in that range give all the penetration that is necessary on deer, black bears and all but the worse angles on a moose. Where I'm from enough is all you need. I will say the wound cavity will be larger in diameter with the 350 FP than a 405 cast. If you measure the wound cavity in diameter and length I think you will find greater trauma at 45/70 velocities with the 350 FP and adequate penetration. Saying all that I use the 405's because I have a lot of them for cheap, but I would not pass a good buy in the 350's and would use them with confidence on the animals you mentioned.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    6,842

    Default

    Cast boolits won't wear your barrel out. That alone, is enough reason to use cast bullets.

    Due to less friction, you will get more velocity, at less pressure for the same powder charge.

    Unless you want a super high velocity load, I would think that the cast bullet load would be best.

    Those things are so GREAT, If I don't watch'it, I'll talk myself into a 45-70, and THAT would be DISLOYAL to my Thutty-Thutty.

    I don't want no,,,,,Boom, Boom, Boom, 45-70 .
    I don't want no,,,,,Boom, Boom, Boom, 45-70 .
    I don't want no,,,,,Boom, Boom, Boom, 45-70 .

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  6. #6
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    5,185

    Default

    IMHO, cast bullets in rifles perform best on game when they are driven 1800-2000 fps, are large dia and cast hard with a good meplat. That describes the 45-70 to a tee.

  7. #7

    Default

    Got a Marlin 1895 in 45/70 myself. Just gotta wonder: has anyone done an actual field study of the performance of cast vs jacketed bullets? I mean, real data on game taken, number of shots required, penetration and expansion of bullets, how far the game ran after being hit, etc. Not just arm-chair opinion.

    As for me, I am comfortable with BOTH cast and jacketed, but I avoid ALL 300gr jacketed hollow point bullets! They just do NOT have good penetration characteristics, IMO. I am somewhat partial to the RCBS mould which casts my gas-checked bullets to 420grs (+/-) with wheel-weights. They work quite well up to 1700-1800fps, even in Marlin micro-groove barrels.

    My experience is the best balance of velocity, penetration, and expansion of 45/70 ammo is in the range of 350-420grs. Anything lighter= higher velocity but poor penetration and bullet weight retention. Anything heavier=slow, high recoil, and drops like a rock. (good luck on hitting anything over 100-150 yards)

    That said, I can think of one 405gr jacketed slug I am NOT impressed with: Speer. Jacket is like paper-thin...I mean...WAY thin! Probably designed with Trap-Door Springfield velocities in mind. I much prefer the Barnes 400gr jacketed slugs hand-loaded to around 1800-1900 fps.

    I have a gut feeling the best compromise weight of a 45/70 bullet is close to 350grs, either cast or jacketed. Recoil not too excessive, penetration good and expansion ok...velocity good, bullet drop not too excessive...

    There are TWO cartridges today that a cast bullet is GREAT in: the 45/70, and the venerable 30-30. There may be more, but these two seem to be designed for it. (yes...I have both!)

    Just my $.02


    Marshall/Ak

  8. #8
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Eagle River
    Posts
    5,185

    Default

    The problem with some 45-70 jacketed bullets, specifically the thin jacketed 405's, is they are designed for black powder velocities. At 1350 fps, they are fine killers. Crank them up to 2000 fps, and you have a very large varmint bullet.

    If I was to shoot jacketed bullets, I'll probably just stick with the 350 gr speer. It was designed for the 458 win mag, and whether driven 2500 fps from a win mag, or 2200 fps from a 45-70, it's a fine game bullet.

    As to cast, as I mentioned before I like to keep the velocity in the 1800-2000 fps range. They just seem to perform most reliably on game at these speeds, and in the 45-70 that's 400-440 gr range. Certainly one could go with 350-360 @ 2200 fps, but it might not be the best choice on the biggest heaviest game and quartering shots.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    northern n.y. and much of the eastern U.S.
    Posts
    120

    Default Was wondering the same

    Marshall said, "I can think of one 405 gr jacketed slug that I'm NOT impressed with: Speer."
    Could he have meant the Speer #2479, the "400 gr jacketed bullet?"

    Was just wondering if "that" bullet is jacketed too thin. I was told that it is a good all around bullet.., from several sources.

    I'm kind of hoping that it's a good one, 'cause it's currently shooting 1" groups from my B 78, and I was thinking of taking it to Newfoundland,
    (Moose hunting) as a "second gun."

    Should I be looking at another bullet, or am I ok with this load?

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 358wsm View Post
    Marshall said, "I can think of one 405 gr jacketed slug that I'm NOT impressed with: Speer."
    Could he have meant the Speer #2479, the "400 gr jacketed bullet?"

    Was just wondering if "that" bullet is jacketed too thin. I was told that it is a good all around bullet.., from several sources.

    I'm kind of hoping that it's a good one, 'cause it's currently shooting 1" groups from my B 78, and I was thinking of taking it to Newfoundland,
    (Moose hunting) as a "second gun."

    Should I be looking at another bullet, or am I ok with this load?

    The Speer 400gr jacketed bullet is good at the lower 45/70 velocities (IE: 1300-1350fps). Yes, it is a "good" bullet, if you are hunting deer, and will take deer reliably. And probably moose also, since they actually are not that hard to kill either. (as innumerable 30-30 owners have found out) However, I would NEVER recommend this bullet for the large bears...thin jacket= poor penetration...
    If you are loading up to around 1800fps, try the 400gr Barnes (thicker jacket). Yes, it costs more, but it's worth it...IMO...


    Marshall/Ak

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bakerton, WV
    Posts
    418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall/Ak View Post
    Got a Marlin 1895 in 45/70 myself. Just gotta wonder: has anyone done an actual field study of the performance of cast vs jacketed bullets? I mean, real data on game taken, number of shots required, penetration and expansion of bullets, how far the game ran after being hit, etc. Not just arm-chair opinion.

    As for me, I am comfortable with BOTH cast and jacketed, but I avoid ALL 300gr jacketed hollow point bullets! They just do NOT have good penetration characteristics, IMO. I am somewhat partial to the RCBS mould which casts my gas-checked bullets to 420grs (+/-) with wheel-weights. They work quite well up to 1700-1800fps, even in Marlin micro-groove barrels.

    My experience is the best balance of velocity, penetration, and expansion of 45/70 ammo is in the range of 350-420grs. Anything lighter= higher velocity but poor penetration and bullet weight retention. Anything heavier=slow, high recoil, and drops like a rock. (good luck on hitting anything over 100-150 yards)

    That said, I can think of one 405gr jacketed slug I am NOT impressed with: Speer. Jacket is like paper-thin...I mean...WAY thin! Probably designed with Trap-Door Springfield velocities in mind. I much prefer the Barnes 400gr jacketed slugs hand-loaded to around 1800-1900 fps.

    I have a gut feeling the best compromise weight of a 45/70 bullet is close to 350grs, either cast or jacketed. Recoil not too excessive, penetration good and expansion ok...velocity good, bullet drop not too excessive...

    There are TWO cartridges today that a cast bullet is GREAT in: the 45/70, and the venerable 30-30. There may be more, but these two seem to be designed for it. (yes...I have both!)

    Just my $.02


    Marshall/Ak
    Yes, but only on deer. Driving hard cast WLN or WFN boolits over 1400 fps will cost you animals and make for long tracking jobs, as far as 200 yards or more. Doing a necropsy on all has shown intact lungs with just a hole in them. Below 1400 fps makes mush out of the internals with little meat damage. Tests were done with from 317 to 378 gr boolits. One has an 80% meplat.
    The nose will create a large pressure wave and move lungs out of the way in a secondary wound channel that goes back to normal after boolit passage. The primary channel is too small.
    As you go over 1400 fps boolits need to be softened and even hollow pointed for expansion but this must be adjusted for the size of the animals. Larger animals can use harder boolits to maintain penetration.
    There is no difference between cast and jacketed bullets at all. Each must be adjusted for the game. The 300 gr Hornady in the 45-70 works great for deer but I would not use them for moose or large bear. I would go to a heavier, tougher bullet. The same as I would not use a dead soft hollow point cast on deer at high velocity.
    You must tailor loads and alloys for the boolit to work in the animal hunted so the boolit does work inside the animal and has enough "dwell" time inside.
    Hard cast at 1800 fps has to break both shoulders or the spine. It is a hole punch only in the lungs.
    Only experience will teach you what your gun does and if it is bad, change the boolit alloy.
    Forget muzzle energy and velocity figures! Not once in history has paper figures killed anything. Only accuracy and the work the bullet does will kill.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bctrucker View Post
    I bought my Marlin 1895 xlr 45/70 a couple of months ago.
    I have been loading hornady 350 grain fn bullets and have
    gotten really good accuracy with them. Now I have been loading
    405 grn trlg gas checked hard cast bullets, and the accuracy is
    just as good or better. I hunt deer,moose and black bears.
    What type of bullet would you use?
    Thanks Mike
    Don't have any tests or theory to add. Just a whole lot of years shooting game with both HC and Jacketed in a couple of 45-70's and my faithful original 450 Alaskan. I hold the loads in my 45-70's down to book max from the major manual publisher, so I don't have any experience with internet loads. I do push those bullets 10-15% faster in the 450 Alaskan than you ever read about in hot 45-70 loads. Come to think of it, I've even whacked a few head with those same bullets at even higher velocities from either of my 458 Winnies, and fewer from a 460 WBY.

    The only honest-to-gosh bullet failure I've seen in any of them was the 350 Hornady pushed to 3000 fps from my long-gone and not-lamented 460 WBY. A broadside shot at a 30-yard deer took out most of the opposite rib cage and left an exit CRATER you could probably shove a 5-gallon bucket into.

    At 2300 to nearly 2600fps, I've never had any of the various 400 grain jacketed bullets come apart, including the 405 Remington, though most game was shot beyond 50 yards with them.

    And I've never found any penalty for pushing hard cast fast rather than slow.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bakerton, WV
    Posts
    418

    Default

    And I've never found any penalty for pushing hard cast fast rather than slow.[/QUOTE]
    Not enough experience. It also shows you used the wrong jacketed bullets for the game being hunted. How could anyone depend on you for choosing a bullet?
    I have killed with the wrong things too but examined what the results were and change things by doing some thinking. Bragging is crap, if I lose animals because I screwed up from bullet selection, I will say so. If I ruin an animal, I will say so. If a boolit gives me trouble I will say so to prevent someone else from having a problem.
    Personal resistance to facts does not help the fellow asking questions.

  14. #14

    Default

    I like hardcast in .45-70.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bakerton, WV
    Posts
    418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Water-Man View Post
    I like hardcast in .45-70.
    Not saying much, what velocity?

  16. #16

    Default

    Not enough experience. It also shows you used the wrong jacketed bullets for the game being hunted. How could anyone depend on you for choosing a bullet?
    I have killed with the wrong things too but examined what the results were and change things by doing some thinking. Bragging is crap, if I lose animals because I screwed up from bullet selection, I will say so. If I ruin an animal, I will say so. If a boolit gives me trouble I will say so to prevent someone else from having a problem.
    Personal resistance to facts does not help the fellow asking questions.
    Sounds like time for anger management training. At the least maybe a pill. Pounding on folks' experience because it doesn't line up with your opinion gets you nowhere.

    Seeya in another life.

  17. #17

    Default

    It so happens I have a 405 grain Lasercast bullet on my desk from a moose I shot a couple of years ago. I think I had the load pushing this bullet at around 1800 FPS (No chrono, just loading data). I shot this moose at 125 yards, and broke it's spine. It dropped like a rock. When I dug out the bullet, I was amazed at how little it deformed. The results were impressive, but snapping the spine is a tough shot.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bakerton, WV
    Posts
    418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by windypoint View Post
    It so happens I have a 405 grain Lasercast bullet on my desk from a moose I shot a couple of years ago. I think I had the load pushing this bullet at around 1800 FPS (No chrono, just loading data). I shot this moose at 125 yards, and broke it's spine. It dropped like a rock. When I dug out the bullet, I was amazed at how little it deformed. The results were impressive, but snapping the spine is a tough shot.
    Nobody seems to read my posts! You only prove what I said. A large animal can use a harder boolit, at 125 yards the boolit has slowed so it works better. With all of this, a hard boolit would have done as well in the rib cage.
    I have explained over and over in my posts but there are always those that dispute without experience. If you would have hit a deer in the lungs at 25 yards with that boolit, you might lose it because it will be too fast and poke a hole only. Hitting the deer at 150 yards with the same boolit will destroy more internals.
    Because an animal is hit in the spine and dropped does not tell anyone a thing about how the boolit works. A .22 will do that or a sharp stick!
    At least you were truthful about a spine hit but you would have done as well with a double lung hit at that range with a large animal. It might have gone a short way before dropping is all.
    Why I get the resistance and smart remarks about cast boolits when everyone admits to troubles with the wrong jacketed bullets does cause anger management issues. I have not found cast to work under all conditions if the same alloy is used.
    Nobody in their right mind would shoot moose or bear with a 110 gr bullet from a .300 mag or an armor piercing bullet either but think hard cast will work for everything.
    School is out for the summer, some need to go to summer school.

  19. #19

    Default

    BFR,
    I think we are agreeing on this. Relax a bit. I hope the West Virginia Summer treats you well.
    Enjoy

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Bakerton, WV
    Posts
    418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by windypoint View Post
    BFR,
    I think we are agreeing on this. Relax a bit. I hope the West Virginia Summer treats you well.
    Enjoy
    OK, can I ship you a ton of biting gnats? It is like living up north with black flies! I can't do anything outside.
    I sent for some stuff called liquid net from the liquid fence company, maybe I can shoot some. These stinking things leave welts that itch.
    How do Alaskans cope?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •