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Thread: Reloading data for Surplus H4831?

  1. #1
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    Default Reloading data for Surplus H4831?

    Hi,
    I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder and one type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets calls for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

    I did find this data: http://stevespages.com/308_6_165.html

    But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
    I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, just FYI.
    Great forum by the way!

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    I read somewhere that some of the surplus 4831 was dupont, at least that was the thought of the writer. My data card says to use dupont IMR 4350 for 150-165, Hodgdon 4831 for 180-200. Why the different powder, I don't know. On the site I posted, they say 165-168 grain bullets use 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831. I'll try my 168 bullets at 70 and see how they shoot. What is an indication that I'll need to start moving up on the powder? I assume I should be able to look at the pattern and use that?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    Hi,
    I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder and one type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets calls for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

    I did find this data: http://stevespages.com/308_6_165.html

    But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
    I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, just FYI.
    Great forum by the way!
    The surplus stuff is definitely different than anything newer. Go back to the era before the newer versions became available, and all published data was for the surplus. That means older manuals, within which there's plenty of data for the Sierra 168 Match King, and if memory serves also a 168 soft point. Trouble is, in that era your TSX wasn't even a gleam in Barnes' eye. Either way, you're going to have to make adjustments.

    Those adjustments are to drop down 5-10% below max for starting loads, then work up slowly in your specific rifle while watching for pressure signs. That's the standard procedure even when you've got contemporary data for contemporary components developed in the same model rifle you have. There are just too many variables from one rifle to the next and between lots of components to allow you to go right to max loads. And internet loads are the last thing I'd put in one of my guns. I work from the manuals, having a much higher regard for their testing equipment than those of a stranger with a keyboard.

    Lots of folks go right to max today and rely on internet typists, but time and experience will show that it's stupid. You're going to get bit with overpressures sooner rather than later. Play it safe and use reputable manuals. Start conservatively, and listen to what your rifle tells you.

  4. #4

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    The manuals of the day, when surpluss H4831 first came out, often referred to the powder as 4350 Data powder. My old manuals from the early 50's, indicate to start with the 4350 data when using the surplus 4831. 165 grain loads work fine for 168 gr loads for lead core bullets. I cannot speak to TSX at all and would reommend a quick email to Barnes for additonal information. Hope that helps. I am burning through my last 10 lbs of surplus 4831.

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    Thanks, if the surplus is the same as the 4350 the loads I just loaded are a little over. But every thing I have been reading has called 4831 old stuff the surplus powder. One thing about the loads in my reloading manual is, the factory loads list muzzle velocity @ 3245 for the 180 gr bullet and the reloading chart has nothing that high for the 180 gr bullet. The highest it goes to is 3065. I wonder if the factories have a different standard. Maybe our reloading pressures are lower, because the brass will be reused and has a longer life at lower pressures.....?? I don't know, just a guess. I'm going to keep looking for powder that will work for my weatherby. Just hard to find anything right now.

  6. #6

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    Old manual had data that was not often chronographed, velocities were optimistic.
    Note I did not say that old 4831 is the same as 4350, but that Hogdon initially recommended using the established 4350 loads as staring loads for 4831. Always start low and observe for pressure sign. You should find a load that works with your brass, bullet, primer and powder combination.

    I am mostly a group shooter myself.

    Cartridges like the 300 HH should have an abundance of "pet loads" that have worked for people over the years.

    good luck and enjoy!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    Hi,
    I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder and one type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets calls for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

    I did find this data: http://stevespages.com/308_6_165.html

    But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
    I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, just FYI.
    Great forum by the way!
    It is good advice to use data from the same era as the powders manufacture.

    But as for your surplus 4831 surplus........it has an interesting history. It was introduced in about 1942 for use in 20MM aircraft cannon ammo. It was made by Dupont. After WWII the excess powder was piled up and burned until Bruce Hodgdon bought several tons of it for resale to civilian reloaders, 4831 was one of the powders he bought and resold along with 4895 (30-06). It was a couple of decades later before the Dupont company and Hodgdon's powder company began making new lots of 4831. Both the new lots of IMR or H4831 were quite different from the original 4831 surplus 20 MM cannon ammo and all would use different loading data. If you have a manual that list 4831 as a powder with no prefix, (no IMR or no H) it is old Hodgdon sold, Dupont made, surplus powder. Your manual must list it as just 4831.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  8. #8
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    This may or may not be of some assistance. Surplus Powder Forum http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=28

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    Default surplus 4831

    Reloading is not like making a cake by carefully following the reciepe and expecting to get a good cake. Whenever you have two cans of powder,even if they were bought the same day at the same store and are labled the same, they are not the same powder unless they have the same lot number on the can. Powder makers tend to change there powders slightly over the years too. Each rifle is different, even though they may have come off the line one after the other. head spacing, chamber size, barrel diameter and a dozen other things will be slightly different. This is why there are starting loads in the manuals and that is where you should start. Now, the Old 4831 is not the same powder as the New 4831. And IMR 4831 is not the same as H4831. However, they are all relatively cose in burn speed and the STARTING load for one should work with the other two. You then work up to a load that has the speed and accuracy you want or until pressure signs show up, which ever comes first. If you are not familiar with pressure signs try to find someone that is to help you learn. Other wise read a lot on pressure signs and err on the side of caution on this. Reloading is not rocket science but it does require attention to detail and caution. Good luck. rbuck

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    Thanks everyone, I did have 3 different kinds of bullets and two different kinds of powder, but I think that was way too may different loads and just too much to keep track of, plus expensive. I am sticking with just one bullet, which is AccuBond Nosler 180 grain Spitzer. I am also just sticking with the R19 powder. I started out with the low end of the chart of 72 and made 3 rounds each of 74, 75, 75.6, 76, 76.6 and 77.

    Has anyone used these Nosler bullets? They have the boat tail and the guy at the store swore by them.

  11. #11
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    Default surplus 4831

    Well, if your not going to use that 4831, I could put it to good use and would pay a reasonable price for it. Let me know. thanks rbuck

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    I bought the surplus 4831 in 40# kegs and used a lot of of it years ago. It was slower then the new powders and loads used as much as 7 grains more in some rifles.
    But you just have to play it safe and go with modern info and work up slow. A chronograph will help and watch for pressure signs. I would not go with 4350 info because you do not want to download the slow powder too much.
    The old stuff was wonderful and gave me super accuracy in guns like the .300 Weatherby.
    I think you would be better off talking with Hodgdon about loads with the surplus stuff.
    I have all the Weatherby load data from 1965 if anyone is interested. You can't use it with most of today's powders.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
    Hi,
    I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder and one type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets calls for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

    I did find this data: http://stevespages.com/308_6_165.html

    But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
    I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, just FYI.
    Great forum by the way!


    The "Speer Volume TWO" 's Wildcat Rifle Loads", of 1956, lists the .300 Wby loads as:
    150gr. bullet 86 to 90 gr. of 4831
    180 gr. bullet 79 to 83 gr. of 4831
    200 gr. bullet 76 to 80 gr. of 4831.

    It is reasonable to conclude these are for the surplus 4831 going on the date. I hope this helps a little.
    batch

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    Quote Originally Posted by batch View Post
    The "Speer Volume TWO" 's Wildcat Rifle Loads", of 1956, lists the .300 Wby loads as:
    150gr. bullet 86 to 90 gr. of 4831
    180 gr. bullet 79 to 83 gr. of 4831
    200 gr. bullet 76 to 80 gr. of 4831.

    It is reasonable to conclude these are for the surplus 4831 going on the date. I hope this helps a little.
    batch

    Thanks for the info, it helps verify what I already have. Makes me feel better.

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