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Thread: How to register a bait site.

  1. #1
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    Default How to register a bait site.

    What information are you required to provide when registering a bait site? What information do you give, or are you willing to give? Years ago I recall the Handy Dandy indicated a hunter setting up a bait station had to provide the GMU and Sub-unit to obtain the appropriate registrations from ADF&G for those sites.
    Several years back I went in to F&G to register my sites. They asked where I was going. I told them both the Unit and Sub-Unit. They then asked which specific location. Confused, I asked them why they needed that info. Their response was that it was required. My next question was when did the regulations change? They had no response, but said I had to give a specific location. Hmmm. Can I look at the regulations stating what information is required? That research indicated that nothing had changed.
    So we went round and round a little bit. They then said that Enforcement required the info. I still held my ground and said that unless required by statute, that I would not provide the info requested, and that I was not leaving without the permits as allowed by statute, and required to legally bait black bear.
    I walked out with my permits. A week later, I received a call from Enforcement. The officer stated that I had not provided a specific location on the Permit information. I agreed that I had not, and asked him what the regulation was that required disclosure of that information. He did not have an answer. I thanked him for his time, and bid him a good day.
    The next year I fought the same battle. The difference was that I was on the move. I was no longer baiting in my old spot, and had no idea where I would be, other than I knew the GMU and S-U. When pressed to provide the info, I said no on 2 counts. First, regs do not require it. Second, I did not know where I was going for certain, and I was not about to lie on a state form that I was signing. There is absolutely no good that could become of that.
    I see no reason to give the info requested under the current system. If there were methods set in to place to protect my site, you bet I would give them everything needed. But as it stands, I can police myself. I keep a clean site, I try to stay away from others, and if people move in too close, I leave a note with my name and number on it explaining what is going on. That gives them a chance to talk if needed, and we can come to a resolution. To date my system has worked out pretty well.
    What do you think? Are you willing to give info not required by statute? Are you willing to lie on the forms and sign it? Am I being obstinant beyond my years and should take a step back?
    And by the way, this year went a bit better, but the F&G employee struggled with the whole idea of it all. We got through it though.

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    the only reason they want the info is to make that sure you are at least 1 mile from a structure, that your not baiting browns, and that you clean up your site. Other than that just maybe what river or drainage for bear density. I just give gps cord.

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    Default maybe

    I have heard those reasons explained too. But how valid is the information being given? Most of the baiters I know all state that they give false info. Some don't even give the right Unit/Sub-Unit.
    Maybe I should have done this as a poll. The question being:
    Under the current regulations, which require no more info than Unit/Subunit, are you willing to give specific and exact location information such as gps coordinates on your bear bait sites that is truthful and honest?
    Why would you, or why wouldn't you?

  4. #4
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    Default Regs

    The regs state that you must give a location of the stand. Such as: 1/2 mile up Mineral Creek, 100 yards east of the bank. GPS coords are not required because that means every bait hunter would be required by law to buy a GPS. Unit numbers just tells them, hummm...... the unit. Since the regulations change per unit and it is a bit of information they need.

    I have been teaching the class maybe five years now and nothing has changed on the location requirements within that time frame.

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    Default Second look

    DIB, based on your answer, I am wrong. Then too, F&G is wrong. If you are correct, then they should not give me the permit until I "fess up" some info other than U/SU. And if you are correct, wonder why Enforcement did not press the issue? Again, for reference, the first year this happened they did look at the bible and my position was supported.
    The Handy Dandy today reads differently than it did years ago. That does not mean the regulation itself changed. Guess I need to call some guys I trust over at the office and have them look it up, or I need to go back in to read the "bible" myself to verify that a change has not taken place.
    If the regs do say that you must give a location, then a person would need to find the state regulatory definition of "location" to determine what is required and F&G should be held to that standard.
    Assuming I am correct, how would you answer the question I posed?
    And just like a teacher to get the student doing more research! ()

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    Default predator control unit permits

    I didn't look for answers in the bible, but the lady at F&G in Palmer told me I needed the GPS coordinates to register a bait sight within the predator control unit. told me the permit couldn't be issued without them.
    of course anyone that has a computer, don't need no stinkin GPS; thay have access to Google Earth.
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    I understand your position and applaude it.
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    Here's the truth, black bear permit says that you need to provide exact directions, the law does not. The regs say that you have to have written permission to use someone's stand the law does not SO WHO'S RIGHT! I say follow the law and the regs and you cant go wrong. just go out and shoot some blackies before they kill calfs
    Last edited by EBalaska; 05-18-2009 at 10:21. Reason: adding to

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    I've never had problems by just saying something like mile 120 Parks Highway, roughly 1/2 mile east. That's pretty darn vague and they've never given me flack about it.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    I went to the F&G office here in Anch and the guy told me that I could give them the GPS reading or a written discription of the location. They prefer GPS and he said that if the officer in the field can't find your stand within 1/2 hour of trying, a citation will be issued. Funny thing though, my stand takes WAY longer then a 1/2 hour for me to hike to......

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailblazersteve View Post
    I went to the F&G office here in Anch and the guy told me that I could give them the GPS reading or a written discription of the location. They prefer GPS and he said that if the officer in the field can't find your stand within 1/2 hour of trying, a citation will be issued. Funny thing though, my stand takes WAY longer then a 1/2 hour for me to hike to......
    Just because they're looking for a site doesn't mean they're going to find it. I registered two sites, set one up, haven't set the other one up. They were more than satisfied with GPS coordinates and a description (and this is the exact description given) 6.5 east of stream "A" and 2.5 miles west of stream "B". The coordinates are enough for them, they just want a general "Location" description.

    How can a citation be issued on site because F&G field guy can't find it? In my case, go look for it, you're not going to find it, I haven't set it up yet.

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    Default

    My thoughts exactly!

  12. #12
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default What?

    Quote Originally Posted by EBalaska View Post
    Here's the truth, black bear permit says that you need to provide exact directions, the law does not. The regs say that you have to have written permission to use someone's stand the law does not SO WHO'S RIGHT! I say follow the law and the regs and you cant go wrong. just go out and shoot some blackies before they kill calfs
    not quite. ( sorry )


    1) bait can not be in field till first day of season
    2) only bio materials, sent lures, etc
    3) the person registering bait shall remove bait scents, (etc) no later then last day of season
    4)no person more then two stations
    5) meat, front/rear hind quarters back strap will be harvested prior to June 1
    6) no brown bears
    7)person who registered shall clearly mark. with this sign...
    8) hunters using bait need written permission or may be in violation of interfering
    9) no bait scents 1/4 mile of roads / rail roads and some rivers
    10 no bait scents... 1 mile from house/ cabin/ camp grounds
    11 no person can give or receive REMUNERATION for use of bait station.
    12 areas with limit over one bear dept may limit bears as condition of permit
    13 some areas may be prohibited from bait stations
    14 is hunters responsibility to know and follow all current regulations.



    okay those are OBVIOUSLY the condensed version but is right off the back of the permit.

    #15 keep a copy of your permit in case lost to wind rain etc......
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Default A regulation is born?

    Gary, which GMU is the predator program in? Is the hunt listed in the Handy Dandy? And in it, along with restrictions, does it spell out that a GPS is required? Would that not somehow restrict people without that piece of equipment from hunting? Not that restrictions are not unheard of.
    TB Steve, I've talked with several people, one of them a 30 year veteran of F&G and passed on your tale. He said impossible. He started to list the reasons. This guy was not only F&G, but was also enforcement/badged. It sounds as if you questioned the validity also. But did you give them the info? Were you also hunting in a predator control area?
    Ak Doug, if a "location" was required, then why would they issue a permit based on a vague description?
    So if all of you did give info, how exact was it? Was it within 5 miles? 4? 3?
    I am still looking at the bible, or "codified". I should have some info in the near future. Think about this. Let's again assume I am correct. Yep, I like being right. But for the sake of argument, let's say the only info required is the GMU and SU throughout AK, regardless of GMU or programs.
    F&G and Enforcement asks for and receives location information that is above and beyond the requirement. There is no way that they can verify the info and validate how correct it is. But, they now have it on record. They keep track for a series of years. Throughout the process, they determine that a high rate of hunters (let's say 90%) are providing the REQUESTED info which is above and beyond the REQUIRED info.
    Now they go to the Board and ask for additional info to become part of the regs. The board says no that is an added burden on the hunters and they'll have to get public input. Enforcement and biologists say it is already being done, the public already agrees. Wallah, a new reg is born.
    Crazy? Maybe, maybe not.
    I am not anti-establishment. I am not fearful of Enforcement. I am just advocating that the regulations should be adhered to from start to finish.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    BORN? i would have to say




    hatched...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Default predator control unit

    is 16.
    Gary

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    ARR, I went to the Anchorage office of F&G on May 13th at 11:45 and talked to the smaller guy behind the counter. I told him I was there to register a bear bait station and the first thing I was asked for was GPS readings. I was surprised and told him that I did not have that info and asked if that was a new requirement that I may have missed. He said no it's not a requirement, that I could still use DETAILED written directions BUT, and he looked me right in the eye and said that if the officer in the field could not find my stand after 1/2 hour of trying to find it then a citation WILL be issued. I was surprised again and thought to myself that this sounded a bit aggresive and walked out without out my permit. I have since gotten my GPS reading and will be heading in to register my station. This will be my 17th year at my location and I have yet to see a sole, including any officers and I'm not thrilled about giving an EXACT location. We'll see in the future if I start to see traffic....

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    Default baitem

    I'm curious as to the charges if citited in a situation like that. sounds like a threat to me...
    on a side note, i went into Fish & feathers the other day to register my site, offered my gps coordinates TWICE... physical discription is good enough i was told...

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    Default TBSteve

    I won't begin to tell you what to do. I would suggest though that it is well within reason, before providing that info, to ask them to show you where it says that you must provide it. From everything I have read that you have written both here and other posts, you seem like a reasonable person trying to do the right thing.
    I did contact F&G this morning. I am correct in my first position that only the GMU and SU are required, and that nothing has changed in that regard. I asked for the specific regs that state even that.
    To date I do not find the information in the AAC, Title 5. There are other regulations that do provide some power to F&G outside of that scope though. I also am waiting to hear back on that.
    If you look on line at the F&G Wildlife Conservation page and specifically the on line Bear Bait Clinic, you will see a chapter that states you must provide specific info. They even go on to describe what the info should look like. They encourage the use of GPS, layout how the coordinates must be given, and even state that you must tell them what format the GPS is in.
    I do not have it in writing yet, but the person I talked with at F&G today says that is all wrong and should have never been put in there. That statement is completely false. I will not say here who I am working with, or in which F&G stations. These people have been around a long time, and they support my position on everything I have stated to date. Surprisingly enough, one of them is the first person I debated this with 4 years ago.
    Beyond that, I might also suggest, that if you find I am correct, and F&G there is wrong, that you at least verbally file a protest with the manager or person in charge. There is absolutely no reason for any F&G employee to threaten a hunter or citizen in that manner.
    Once again let me say that I am not anti establishment. I am not arguing this for the sake of argument. My position is that I am willing to abide by the rules, regulations, and statutes as spelled out. They too must operate within those bounds. Cajoling, threatening, or abusing power is to me just not acceptable.

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    Default Poll? Moderators?

    I wonder if a poll would provide some insight as to the accuracy of information provided in registering bear bait sites.
    Moderators, can a poll be set up in such a way that responders remain anonymous? Can the poll ask multiple questions?
    1- Do you give F&G Bear bait station location information other than GMU/Sub-unit?
    2- How accurate is the information you give F&G as to the location of your bait station?
    0-1 mile
    1-2 mile
    2-3 mile
    4-5 mile
    etc.
    3- Do you bait in the same gmu and sub unit that your sites are registered in?
    My responses would be:
    1- NO
    2- None
    3- Yes
    As the people that are working on providing answers have other duties, I have not pressed them for answers. I will contact them by the end of the week to see if any determinations have been made as to what the rules call for.

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    I don't mind giving my exact location. What if something bad happens, an exact location brings help quicker. Already had someone fall out of a tree stand in Sterling and broke his pelvis. This is from a guy who is a hunting fool and has baited for years, not a newbie at all. I do think that if you are hunting on the Federal Refuge, it is a condition of your permit to provide the exact bait site info.
    AKRIVERRAT, are you talking to ADFG employees or Alaska Wildlife Troopers? There is a difference, even with the ADFG employees that have a badge. I would want my answer to come from the guys who write the citations, no matter what you think of LEOs.
    The whole thing of finding a bait site within a 1/2 hour or a ticket is written is completely wrong, that has never been the case.
    If my info is exact and enforcement wants to check my site, I want them in and out quickly, not roaming around my hunt area, stinking up the place trying to find GMU 15, near mile 33, or whatever the vague description is.
    Last edited by jtm9; 05-21-2009 at 08:29. Reason: sp

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