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Thread: Myths and legends of the venerable Bear Gun…

  1. #1
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    Default Myths and legends of the venerable Bear Gun…

    After reading many posts by different names I have found a few myths and misinformation that seems to have followers that perpetuate such.

    1. The 45/70 out penetrates the .458 win/.458 Lott rifle. Most who keep this myth running accept a water penetration test by someone who sells bullets, versus the real world of over a century of field use in Africa. You can glue a bullet on an arrow shaft and push it further than either round through the water test by hand; the parachute effect on the bullets and the dynamics of water are the cause and effect of this illusion. The trick of this illusion is the speed of the higher velocity .458 win and Lott, which don't go as far through water ... Geezz, wonder why? Just like slapping water versus just pointing your fingers into it; with this you can see an example of how this law of physics or science works. It is also good ole common sense for some of these snake-oil salesman illusions. Using the same bullets in any animal there is no comparison between these two classes of calibers, either in penetration or in killing the intended offending animal. The 45/70 can out do the big dog? MYTH.
    2. Many push this one. NO handgun will suffice for bear protection I beg to differ. A .500 S&W pushing out 400 to 500 grain solids, Punch Bullets, or 500 grain hard-cast Corbons around 1500 to over 1600 FPS can do anything a 45/70 can do, any day of the week. The caveat here is of course the shooter as with all firearms. Me personally, I have used handguns for over 46 years, with most of that almost weekly shooting. My profession for over 30 years required practice and qualification, and I have taken Elk, Deer, running jackrabbits, one Bear—not hunting, antelope, and I have won medals in International competition. I had my own 50 yard and 50 meter range on my Colorado mountain property, and used it religiously … my life, and my brothers on the street depended on it. This is not for bragging purposes, but qualifications when I say shooting a handgun for me is like pointing my finger, what I look at gets hit … at reasonable range, which is what defense shooting is all about. NO, a guy who rarely if ever shoots at game in the field with a handgun would not be one to favor a handgun, but my handgun brethren out there are. A rifle is better in most cases, but they are too big and inconvenient for everyday carry for some Alaska residents or backpackers, etc. Folks like me up there for a short visit do not mind carrying a big, fat, honking big bore rifle for short term bear protection. Yes, I feel if I ever needed to use my .500 S&W it would perform admirably! NO handgun will suffice?
    MYTH.
    3. Shotguns are better or as just as good as a 45/70 rifle for protection. If one is talking about a shotgun with a 3-inch chamber, pushing the new Black Cat Brenneke super-hard 600-grain slugs, this has some merit. This would be especially so for country boys who grew up hunting small game with a shotgun. The downsides are few, but here are some. If you carry One-In-The-Chamber, the safety on most shotguns are not as safe, robust, and anti-accident designed as is a good bolt gun, or some lever guns. I feel they are not drop proof, as a good Mauser safety is. If you carry none in the chamber this is a moot point! The reliability of most shotguns is superb, either pump or some high-end autos. The double shotgun seems to be forgotten, but the cowboy version made by Stoeger (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir...coach_guns.php ) has promise … with the Black Cat Slugs it would be a poor man’s double rifle! Better? MYTH, as good, Maybe so.
    Last edited by Proud American; 05-16-2009 at 13:45. Reason: added a short sentence to clarify...

  2. #2
    Unbridled Beast
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    Bullets matter more than headstamps.

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    None of those choices do anything for me. Give me an accurate, reliable rifle, chambered in .308 cal or higher, and I'm good. Good reason to leave the pistol at home.

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    Default Good Point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbridled Beast View Post
    Bullets matter more than headstamps.
    But, use the SAME bullet, and the Big Dog always wins!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    None of those choices do anything for me. Give me an accurate, reliable rifle, chambered in .308 cal or higher, and I'm good. Good reason to leave the pistol at home.
    Any gun would be welcome if you found yourself in a bad situation... but I agree with Matt..... .308 on up.

  6. #6
    Unbridled Beast
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    Curious here...as to the chambering/bullet particulars that you window shoppers buy the most?

    Feel free to quantify your feigned purchases,towards Real Life events.

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    Default Bullets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbridled Beast View Post
    Curious here...as to the chambering/bullet particulars that you window shoppers buy the most?

    Feel free to quantify your feigned purchases,towards Real Life events.
    Not sure who you're calling "window shopper"--maybe you're some sort of great expert. I've taken game with several different calibers as well as 12 gauge slugs. I took my biggest bear with a Remington 180 grain bullet from a 30-06--which is just as good a round as any. And yes-- the bears and other game were certainly "real life events"--I don't think I was dreaming. The bullets were real too.

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    I always love when people from back east give resident alaskans all this good advice. I doubt seriously that there are too many brown bears running around Pennsylvania, and I also seriously doubt your lifestyle reflects the average alaskans life.

  9. #9

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    Who is in Pennsylvania (?)

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce1965 View Post
    Who is in Pennsylvania (?)
    Who is on first, Exton is in Pa.

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    I'm still trying to find out what a window shopper is??

    Hey, Thebear_78, good to hear from ya. How are things your way?

    You just never know when the bears will envading the eastern states.....this global warming is making them move, I guess.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbridled Beast View Post
    Curious here...as to the chambering/bullet particulars that you window shoppers buy the most?

    Feel free to quantify your feigned purchases,towards Real Life events.
    I don't know what window shoppers are and don't know what category I'm in and I'm probably far from normal, (some might argue about which direction I am, also) but I do buy lots for different calibers.

    Favorites would include 308 Win, 30-06 Spg, 338 Win mag, 375 H&H, and I especially like 40 caliber rifles. .411", .416" and .423" diameter bullet shooters and one of those would always be up for any serious bear control work. I think grizzly and brown guns will use at least 300 grains of well constructed bullet with about .300 SD value.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  13. #13

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    For me, Horse Power is "LESS" important than "FIT". I'll take a Firearm that fits me and has much less power, over one that has excessive drop,or too little drop. And I want a relatively short Length of pull, verses my normal length of pull, even if I get a thumb bump on the nose.

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    I tend to use the same rifles for everything, and I"m sure of the outcome either way. Accurate shot, good bullet placement, dead animal. I tend to do most of my hunting with a 300 RUM lately, I have a good accuate load worked up with 168gr TSX that I am sure no animal could stand in front of and walk away, at least not walk very far. Other favorites 280 ackley, 30/06, 300 RUM, 338 RUM, 9.3x62, 375 RUM, 45/70, 458 Lott. Big to small any of them will punch a hole thru a brown bear with good bullets, Barnes tsx, kodiak bonded, Nolster accubond/partitions. Take your pick.

    I even carry a "minimal" 10mm glock for general purpose carry. I have had everything from the 10mm-500smith and take the shootability of the glock over the bulk and awkwardness of the 500 smith. I can place 15 rounds on target with the 10mm much faster than 6 with the 44 or 3 with the 500. Some guys can shoot the mongo revolvers well, I just found I can't nearly as well as a hot loaded 10mm and I know for a fact that a 200gr Jacketed flatpoint at 1200+fps will punch thru.

    I suggest that people practice the "charging bear" a few times and the will quickly see how well they can do with a handgun. Take a RC car with a coathanger wire stuck on top, put a 5" balloon on the end and have someone race the car at you from 20 yards. start with your back to it, have someone yell "bear" and start that car racing at you. Even a fast RC car won't be fast enough to be realistic but will give you an idea. Its a lot harder than you think. One hint, you'll get more consistant hits if you drop down to your knee, being on the level plane takes the elevation elment out of the equation.

    Here is the big secret......one thimble full of common sense is worth all the firepower in the world. Situational awareness, food scent prevention, and avoiding areas where you might surpise a bear or come upon thier kill is the most important.

    All of this "bearaphobia" is akin to the tactical junkies. All they talk about is SWAT-ing it up with imagined impending urban gun battles, while bearaphobics act like they are preparing for an all out ursus assalt. I'll give them both the same advice....."where the hell do you life? you don't need a gun you need to move if you have to worry that much."

    Murphy-
    Been good, too busy. Kids running me ragged and trying to bait some bears on the side. Hope things are going good up in Fairbanks.

  15. #15
    Unbridled Beast
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    Murph,

    Please Post pics of your Bears,as that'd quantify window shopping particulars.

    If only obviously.

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    Thit topic has been beat to death and its always fun. Personaly i dont care what others carry. Its their hide not mine. I personaly carry a .454 ruger alaskan. will it be enough? will it be better than spray? i wont reply to that but to say it will feel very good on my hip. I will like knowing its there. I love revolvers and i shoot them a lot. the recoil does not bother me one bit. Its easier to carry than some of the monsters so thats what i will carry.

  17. #17
    Unbridled Beast
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    I'd love to see a pic of a .454 Bruin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbridled Beast View Post
    Murph,

    Please Post pics of your Bears,as that'd quantify window shopping particulars.

    If only obviously.
    How many big dangerous game have you killed Unbridled Beast? Please show us some pictures so we won't assume you mean yourself when you discuss window shopping. I would really like to see
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  19. #19
    Unbridled Beast
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    Hmmmmmmm...for starters?

    .375" 270gr FailSafe via 3K launch. Feel free to top it,though I'll not hold my breath.


  20. #20
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    The Easterlings have spoken. Looks like im gonna be selling my 45/70 for something big when I travel to Pennsylvania!!!


    Anyone know where I can get me a 458 for them dangerous AMINALS back east?

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